Mains and branches design question...

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  • dbhost
    Slow and steady
    • Apr 2008
    • 9209
    • League City, Texas
    • Ryobi BT3100

    Mains and branches design question...

    This will actually impact my shopping list so here goes nothing...

    And before it gets brought up, yes I am going with 5", already started the investment and am in process, and no it isn't idea, but neither is running a 2HP dust collector, or having my shop in an attached garage my wife can stow stuff in. It is a compromise I made given all the information I had available at the time. I feel I made the best choice for m situation. But now I need to determine just how far to take the 5" main.

    As you may know, my DC is in the back right corner nook of my home workshop. This nook eventually will go away with a master bath remodel, but for now, it stays put. I come out with a 5" 45, a run of 5", another 45 at the wall. My plan is to go up with a 5x5x5 wye and a 45 up the wall, 2 45s accross to the ceiling. But lets look at the main branch before we went up the wall first.

    My plan here is to run a 5" main all the way across, mid height along the wall, about 36" above the floor. 5x5x5 wyes aiming down into a 5" blast gate, then 5x4x4 splitter at the band saw, a 4x2.5x2.5 Y branch to the bottom of the saw, and a 4" with some sort of magnet rig as a pickup on the table, particularly when reswaing it pukes a ton of sawdust on the table that gets missed below the table.

    Down 5' on the main and another 5x5x5 branch wye, and a 5x4 reducer, 4" blast gate and hose connection. This connection can be used as 4" or funnel reduced to 2.5". This will be right where the flip top stands will park. Down another 5' and another 5x5x5 branch wye. This time I need to figure out the lathe dust collection hood. I have been using a 4" blast gate, and epoxied on rare earth magnets to a 4x10 register box opened up in a surround fashion. VERY effective for what I use it for. WORTHLESS for anything coming off a chisel, but the way I sand, perfect.

    Another 3' or so down and I need to do 2 45s to make a 90 degree turn. Here is where I kind of HAVE to use more hose than I want, and turn to the drill press. OR... Roll the drill press where the flip top stands pickup can be used, In that case leave out the lathe branch wye and just connect at a pair of 45s. This might be more sensible and help me keep the run shorter...

    Okay back up to the wall / ceiling.

    Once I am at the ceiling above the first branch wye.and made my 90 to the ceiling, another branch wye 5x5x5 to make a run to the table saw / workbench, and the miter saw / mortiser bench.

    This is where I get twitchy.

    Do I make my drops using 5", and neck down to 4" or split to 5x4x4 immediately before the tool or should I transition to 4" at the bend from the ceiling?

    If I make the transition at the ceiling, I can use more of what I already have, and be necked down so I get greater vacuum, but less airflow.

    As a reminder these connections are going to be...

    #1. Router table. I need connections top and bottom. Top is 4", bottom can be 2.5",
    #2. Workbench. I like having a 4" hose available above the bench, that I can neck down to 2.5"
    #3. Table saw. 4" shark guard upper, 2.5" blade shroud lower. Don't care as long as air is flowing and working on the belly pan. I is presently fitted with a 4" port and fed off of a 4x4x2.5" branch wye after the blast gate.
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  • capncarl
    Veteran Member
    • Jan 2007
    • 3564
    • Leesburg Georgia USA
    • SawStop CTS

    #2
    Did I read it somewhere or just dream it that you should come off from the collector inlet with 4’ of straight pipe?

    All feeds off the 5” should be 4”

    The last wye should be a reduced 5x4x4 to keep the velocity up on the lift.
    Last edited by capncarl; 01-25-2022, 07:52 PM.

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    • dbhost

      dbhost
      commented
      Editing a comment
      Funnily enough, I managed to weasel my way around it, although I am still going to install the 5" blast gate for the bandsaw so I will end up with 2 spare 4" blast gates. The last branch wye is reduced to 4" on both outlets, one to the table saw / workbench, and the other to the.... ugh.

      Miter saw.

      I am not going to run 5 to the miter saw until I figure out the redesign as I suspect I am going to need to cut ducting...
  • dbhost
    Slow and steady
    • Apr 2008
    • 9209
    • League City, Texas
    • Ryobi BT3100

    #3
    Well, I can't gobble up the cubic footage. Not sure how else to make it fit.Although I am not making a tight turn straight out of the DC, but more like an adjustable elbow set to 45, 3' of pipe, and another 45 in a gradual effectively sweeping S...

    Since this pic was taken, the wall end of the connection is straightened up and supported with some duct strapping.

    My plan with that 5x4x4 is to use that to split to the bandsaw, and get another one to split for the table saw...

    Click image for larger version

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    • LCHIEN
      Internet Fact Checker
      • Dec 2002
      • 20914
      • Katy, TX, USA.
      • BT3000 vintage 1999

      #4
      I would think you need to use 5" in the long horizontal runs as much as possible to keep the restriction and pressure drops/ losses low. But perhaps use 4" in the up-going verticals to keep the velocity high to lift the cuttings uphill against gravity.
      Loring in Katy, TX USA
      If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
      BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

      Comment

      • dbhost
        Slow and steady
        • Apr 2008
        • 9209
        • League City, Texas
        • Ryobi BT3100

        #5
        Originally posted by LCHIEN
        I would think you need to use 5" in the long horizontal runs as much as possible to keep the restriction and pressure drops/ losses low. But perhaps use 4" in the up-going verticals to keep the velocity high to lift the cuttings uphill against gravity.
        That's really the question.

        Not the vertical that is gong down from the ceiling to the first branch wye, but the ones coming from the ceiling to the individual tool drops in order to maintain velocity should I drop at the branch wye or at the blast gate basically...
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        • dbhost
          Slow and steady
          • Apr 2008
          • 9209
          • League City, Texas
          • Ryobi BT3100

          #6
          Okay so shopping list time. I have projects that will take priority first, but figure within the next 2 weeks I should do some shopping...

          Once I come out of the first run from the DC, / elbows, Branch wye, aimed up, Add 1 adjustable elbow here to make the bend to the ceiling. Use the existing 3' segment I have in my spares, and another 2 adjustable elbows. This gets me to the ceiling. We will come back to this...

          Immediately after the first branch wye, adapt second, aimed DOWN, adjustable elbow, 5x4x4 splitter, first run off to 4x2.5x2.5 splitter on bottom of bandsaw with its own blast gate. Second run I need to have some sort of positionable 4" hose. Looking for advice on that. Can anyone help?

          Run down main / outer wall to get behind lathe and to drill press. This is physically 15' from where the branch off to the band saw / upright will be, so I am thinking 2 joints of 5', 1 joint 2', of course the branch wye to get to the lathe. and a pair of adjustable elbows. Probably need to make a bracket for those.

          Elbows 8
          5' joints 5
          2' joints 1

          Now back to the ceiling. Another 5x5x5 branch wye, first run, 2 segments of 5' and then 2 elbows to make the right. Reduce to 4" and drop using existing DWV and blast gate to miter saw bench. This WILL be redone, but I need to redo the shop library cabinet first. It's kind of in the way of how I want / need to route the DC ducting.

          On the branch, I go over 1 5ft segment, and then adjustable elbow, and here is where I get messed up.

          I am thinking branch wye, elbow, drop with 5" just to below the bench top height, where I can continue down the line to where I can reduce, but I will ONLY Have 4" down there, Should I reduce at the ceiling due to the lift?, And then the 2 drops overhead, the one for the blade guard, and the other for workbench / router table fence.. So basically I am thinking AT this branch wye, just reduce both the straight through, AND the drop. Or am I wrong on that?

          I am most heavily leaning toward reducing to 4" at this point as the ports here have proven themselves, I just need to split to get an upper and lower for the table saw and router table. IF that is the case, I come away with the following shopping list.

          5" adjustable elbows 8
          5" split lock duct 5' long 6 joints.
          Rolls of HVAC aluminum tape 2" x 60yd. I am going to start with 1 roll and see where I go from there. I might need more.

          I did not includ a 2' joint as I figured one extra 5' and I could cut it down to make unions between ABS pieces where needed like first and second branch wyes.

          Running total $113.31 + tax at 8.25%

          My thought process is mains and subs. So the 5" is the main branch, the 4" is the sub branches where, honestly, I will be lifting the dust and taking it to the main.

          Currently in inventory or installed.

          The overhead run over the table saw, and router table / workbench.
          The lower run under the talbe saw / workbench.
          All blast gates, and they are all 4" aluminum through blast gates. Pretty sure I got them at Peachtree many many moons ago.

          At least 16 4" DWV 45s
          Around 40' of 4" DWV in various lengths.
          Around 12 4" DWV 45 degree branch wyes.
          Yes all the 4" I could ever want...
          Huge box of HF pop rivets for insuring the joints don't come loose.
          8 ABS Plastic 5x5x5 branch wyes.
          8 ABS Plastic 5x4 cone reducers
          ABS Plastic 5x4x4 fork wye
          At least 3 4x2.5 cone reducers.
          At least 4 or 5 4x2.5 ABS Branch wyes. No idea where most of them came from, I only got one for the table saw...
          1 4x2.5x2.5 fork wye at the band saw.
          Unknown number of 4 and 2.5" wire clamps.
          Multiple spools of duct hanger strapping.
          Actual 4" U two bolt duct straps.
          Already in use, hoping to reuse the positions drywall anchors, particularly in the ceiling to hold the ducting in place.
          Last edited by dbhost; 02-01-2022, 01:56 PM.
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          • capncarl
            Veteran Member
            • Jan 2007
            • 3564
            • Leesburg Georgia USA
            • SawStop CTS

            #7
            I know it goes against everything that the wise ones say not to do, but why not use a short piece of flex for a bend instead of fighting with a mechanical fitting? The wise ones talked about flex like it is all a piece of 2 1/2” vacuum cleaner hose, where all of my 6” and a lot of my 4” flex is as smooth as a piece of pvc inside.

            Comment


            • dbhost

              dbhost
              commented
              Editing a comment
              If you have a good recommendation for affordable, durable, easy to work with smooth 5" hose I will happily use that. I am just unaware of any 5" hose that isn't basically overgrown shop vac hose...

            • capncarl
              capncarl commented
              Editing a comment
              PVC hose is not generally aimed at vacuum cleaners and is nice and smooth inside. I have several length of plastic 4” collapsible hose that goes from 4 feet to 20 feet. It’s not smooth inside, and I absolutely hate it and would not recommend to anyone. If you have it stretched out on a table and block off the end it will retract and knock everything off the table.
              www.ducting.com has 5” smooth inside.
          • dbhost
            Slow and steady
            • Apr 2008
            • 9209
            • League City, Texas
            • Ryobi BT3100

            #8
            Checked and rechecked my my list. At the point where I am transitioning to 4" etc..., so the list is, and the order is made.

            #1. 6 joints 5 foot 5 inch split lock ducting.
            #2. 6 adjustable 5 inch elbows.
            #3. 1 roll 2" x 60 yards Aluminum HVAC tape.

            I currently have 3 feet of 5" split lock ducting. And at least a partial roll of aluminum HVAC tape.

            I am ready and itching to go...
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            • dbhost
              Slow and steady
              • Apr 2008
              • 9209
              • League City, Texas
              • Ryobi BT3100

              #9
              Progress made, moved the floor level drop to just under the bench, ready to connect at the ceiling.

              The joints used to be screws but I am going pop rivets for assemblies that won't need to come apart..


              I attached the assembly to the bench using some 4 inch 2 hole U straps. These hold nicely...

              Its needing to be sealed withe HVAC tape and is ready for connecting overhead.

              When I moved the table saw connection I found the lasthrew times I used it, I forgot to open the blast gate... so now more sweeping!

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              • dbhost
                Slow and steady
                • Apr 2008
                • 9209
                • League City, Texas
                • Ryobi BT3100

                #10
                I need to rant here. It's a stupid rant so bear with me. And you northern folks are not allowed to laugh. I live in Texas and am married to a native girl Who does NOT like going out in the cold...

                So my delivery date from Home Depot for the elbows was missed. Not shocked in the slightest. Not one tiny bit at all because, well they use FedWrecks, I mean FedEx for shipping (BOOO!!!!!) so I called Home Depot customer support to see what the holdup is. Their web page / tracking link forces you back into Home Depots system, and they do not provide full shipping tracking details.

                Thanks guys...

                But I digress.

                Their agent was a friendly enough guy, explained that shipped does not mean shipped, just that a shipping label was created. This typically means the box is packed the label was made, and most likely applied to same said box, and it is sitting most likely on Home Depots warehouse dock waiting for FedEx to pick up outgoing shipments, but apparently one or the other doesn't work over the weekend.

                You know allowing me to see simply tracking label created, and estimated delivery date TBD instead of Saturday Feb 5 by end of day would have been a LOT more helpful.

                I had assumed delivery if they had the stuff locally, and they did, would have meant delivery from local stock, by a local courier service like all the other big box stores do.

                That is what I get for assuming.

                So I sit, and wait, for stuff that SHOULD have been here yesterday.

                Assuming it was going to be here I took apart my existing system and started the reconfiguration. NO matierials showed up. Other work needed to get done, see the post about cutting the half laps for my second flip top stand. LOTS of uncaptured sawdust, chips etc... EVERYWHERE. How does cutting 16 half laps generate THAT MUCH sawdust and chips? I'll be cleaning this up forever. But back to the point.

                Is Home Depot perfect? Nope, not even close.
                But they have what I need, mostly, with acceptable quality if I fish through carefully enough, and at a price I am willing to pay, or I just don't buy.

                Is this experience going to keep me from buying from Home Depot?

                Nope.

                Is this experience going to keep me from buying from Home Depot and using their ship to home service?

                Most likely.

                So unless it requires a truck, next time I need to pick up stuff from Home Depot, and I don't want to go inside, I am just going to order curbside pickup. And stay inside the car where it is nice and warm...
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                • duramen
                  duramen commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Shipping is snarled all over the US, and it is not just FedEx. The cause has been the extensive winter storms across the country. We shipped two packages via UPS from West Coast to East Coast. They were due last week and were delayed. We still have not seen an updated delivery date from UPS. The last update from UPS showed it leaving the West Coast depot near us. This morning they finally appeared on the East Coast, but not that close to their final destinations. There is no updated delivery date yet. At least they are showing up much closer to their final destinations, but that change just recently happened. UPS's website does not show as much detail about shipments as it once did.

                • dbhost

                  dbhost
                  commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I am in Houston Metro, they are shipping from Ft. Worth TX. It's been cold, but no traffic snarls. And FedEx regularly for years blows the delivery date by a day or two. They simply speaking are not reliable to get a package where it needs to go when they say it will. Of all the major parcel shippers, UPS is the only one that regularly gets packages where I want them to be when they say they will deliver.

                • capncarl
                  capncarl commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I ordered a replacement heat pump window air conditioner from HD. Trying to shop local, did the pick up in the parking lot thing. It was a 2 week shipping time. I was impressed because a factory rep called the next day to verify building size, voltage etc. The truck arrived at HD about noon Thursday and I recieved a call for my pickup. They rolled out a box that wasn’t the AC, it was another of my order, the roll up door insulation. I went in to investigate why the AC, that was in a trailer in their yard wasn’t ready for pick up. They explained that the unload crew had already gone home and wouldn’t be back until Monday. I had already arranged for an appliance installation crew to set the unit in the 6 foot high opening Friday afternoon, so much for that. Wednesday of the next week it was installed. That was a long month to suffer with a failing AC when I could have ordered direct and had it shipped in half the time directly to my shop. So mush for shopping local!
              • dbhost
                Slow and steady
                • Apr 2008
                • 9209
                • League City, Texas
                • Ryobi BT3100

                #11
                Anxiously awaiting delivery of my 5" split lock pipe elbows, and foil tape. Home Depot / Fedex say out for delivery. We will see. FWIW, this stuff was allegedly going to be delivered 2 days ago.

                I need to clean up some of the 4" that I am reusing as it has been laying on the shop floor for 10 years, and is just nasty looking. Apparently at some point a can of purple PVC primer got spilled on the stuff. When I finally move out of this shop, the floor is going to need a good scrubbing, acid etching, and then an epoxy coating because there is NO WAY this floor is ever going to get perfectly clean...
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                • dbhost
                  Slow and steady
                  • Apr 2008
                  • 9209
                  • League City, Texas
                  • Ryobi BT3100

                  #12
                  Elbows are here, continuing the tear out of the old stuff and install of the new...

                  I pulled the 5x4x4 out, removed the connections hammered the 5" elbow already existings crimps as smooth as possible, hammered the new 5" elbows crimps as smooth as possible to get the fit I wanted Trying to orient the crimps OVER the plastic fittings, and aimed toward the dust collector to minimize drag.

                  Took and connected the 2 branch wyes together using Gorilla tape. It seems to work, worked before on the 4" stuff so sticking with a theme...

                  Planning on trying to use the 5x4x4 on the branch there to connect the band saw. I want an above the table pickup for it.

                  I am still waiting for the rest of the split lock so here I sit, waiting. WIll be dismantling the 4" as I can access it. And strapping up the 5" as it installs, and YES the branch wyes ARE sloping to the right. I have a transformer and that cedar cross to the right of the band saw to clear. I will likely drop the main elbow at the wall to the left to get the overall line straighter, but this is it for now...

                  5 inch branch wyes and ducting.
                  Last edited by dbhost; 02-07-2022, 02:24 PM.
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                  • dbhost
                    Slow and steady
                    • Apr 2008
                    • 9209
                    • League City, Texas
                    • Ryobi BT3100

                    #13
                    Reworking the ceiling run. Pulled it down. cleaned up the table saw drop and run to the miter saw. This will be redone again when I am ready to figure out exactly how I am going to redo dust collection on the miter saw. May end up springing for a deciated 5" run there, but until then....
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                    • capncarl
                      capncarl commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I think I’d plan on a the full 5” to the dust spewing miter saw… and probably use the shop vacuum as well!

                    • dbhost

                      dbhost
                      commented
                      Editing a comment
                      As badly as the miter saw collection works, I might just go shop vac only for a while...

                    • dbhost

                      dbhost
                      commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Well, a decision has been made by default. I am 2 joints of 5" and 1 blast gate short of actually being able to connect the miter saw, unless I rig up the table saw overhead AND the workbench to share a common port / blast gate. Which only leaves me short 2 joints of 5".... And at that, I would still need to go UP with 4"... Bleh
                  • dbhost
                    Slow and steady
                    • Apr 2008
                    • 9209
                    • League City, Texas
                    • Ryobi BT3100

                    #14
                    Well, I am chugging right along with the install,a nd getting a bit tired of all the climbing, crawling, and, well all of it. And the mess it is making. Ugh....

                    It's looking pretty good though. At least along the main wall with the band saw, flip top stands, lathe etc... the blast gates are more or less "right there" with very little bend in the line, very little hose to deal with. The branch at the lathe could have been a 5x4x4 but I didn't have one. A 4" for the lathe, and a 4" for the drill press.. But I just didn't... I'm strapping it up against the wall as I go so it is nice and neatly installed, and I will rip out the remainder of the lower former run when finished... at some point.

                    Removing, or at least flattening the crimps enough to get a smooth connection to the branch wyes is a bit of a hand cramp inducer, but I am managing. It would have been easier had I considered the length of the pipe and the location of my vice but that is just me being an idiot...

                    I am probably NOT going to complete the install today, just for my own sanity sake. Just going to go at at easier pace...
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                    • dbhost
                      Slow and steady
                      • Apr 2008
                      • 9209
                      • League City, Texas
                      • Ryobi BT3100

                      #15
                      More progress. Lower run done. Upper run to the first drop...

                      2 5 footers and 1 3 footer left... I might make it...

                      Yes I am aware my recently clean shop now looks like a bomb hit it. It is part and parcel of doing 4 different projects in the shop at one time.

                      #1. Compressed air piping system final tweaks. Done.
                      #2. Dust collection ducting upgrades. Well, you see where I am with this. I'd say about 70% done.
                      #3. Flip top tool cabinet #2. About 50% done.
                      #4. Board stretching. I.E. creating a glue edge and biscuit joining extension boards for the master vanity closet shelves. About 40% done, and buried in here somewhere. I really ought to put the biscuit joiner up for now...

                      I need to finish up the dust colleciton ducting, and then do another deep dive cleaning. I already managed to lose the burnisher that came in yesterday on that workbench somewhere...

                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by dbhost; 02-09-2022, 02:28 PM.
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