Advice on table saw choice

[Knottscott]

I thought this was BT Central site? Has everyone turned into cast iron saw owners here?

I'm very very surprised at the responses here.

What has happened that everyone is so negative on the BT3100 saw? Has the BT3100 changed while I wasn't looking? Mine hasn't. Now you buy a saw because it has Biesmier fence on it over a BT3100? Really? Did everyone fall off the bandwagon just because Rod Kirby bought a non-BT saw?

What has happened to this forum?

It probably has a lot to do with the fact that the BT is no longer marketed as such. It's not really negative toward a BT when someone prefers a characteristic of another saw over the BT. There are some advantages to other designs too.

[Sawatzky]

My BT was just as accurate as my Ridgid saw is. To me accuracy means setting the fence to a measurement, and getting that measurement when you cut. The BT never missed in that area. The difference is really just the mass and heavy duty features of larger saws. The BT can't outdue a contractor or hybrid saw in the areas of mass, longevity, and power. But if a fence; be it a Bies, Rigdid, Unifence or the BT fence is square to the blade, they will all be accurate. So the question in not if the BT is more or less accuarate than larger saws. All saws can be accurate. Some like me, just like the mass and iron.

[JimD]

Charlie,

I like your dust control modification of your Delta contractors saw. The type of design you came up with is built into the BT3100. If you can get to the old posts part of this forum, you can find my BT3100 on it's portable base. I have an articulated plate on the back of my BT3100 that works with the dust shroud around the blade the BT3100 came with. When I tilt the blade, the articulated cover moves with it. I did not come up with the design, Jim Frye, who posted here long before I did, came up with it. My base is for my BT3100 with extension rails that give me over 60 inches rip capacity. I have drawers in the base for extra blades and tools. The saw with the drawers full as they usually are weighs several hundred pounds.

Your comments on accuracy suggest either you have not used a BT3100 or you used one that was not adjusted correctly. The rip fence of the BT3100 locks at both the front and the back and will hold it's adjustments very well. The table surface of a stock BT3100 is very limited which can be an issue but if you build a custom base with extension table, as I have, you can end up with a wider base than even a cabinet saw with a 50 inch fence. I still lack the depth in front of the blade of a hybrid or cabinet saw but that is usually not an issue. I prefer to crosscut on my CMS or radial arm saw but those that like the sliding miter table get good accuracy from it too.

One of the features of the BT3100 that contribute to its accuracy is a micro adjuster for the rip fence. Using the micro adjuster it is very easy to move the rip fence a precise 1/64 inch or less. Even most cabinet saws and certainly your contractors saw did not come with this feature. It was an accessory for the Ryobi too but it works very well.

Your posts are good but you need to at least use a well adjusted BT3100 before you criticize it for accuracy. Those of us who have used both know the BT3100 gives up nothing to more expensive saws in the accuracy department. Those that think otherwise are simply not fully informed. Fine Homebuilding had a professional carpenter review the Ryobi when it was the original BT3000 with a 12A motor and over $1000 price tag. He sold his other portable saw to buy one. You can easily find things to criticize about the BT3000/3100 but accuracy is simply not a valid criticism.

Jim

[master53yoda]

Oh comeon, first the BT is as accurate as industrial cabinet table saws, and now they are the original Hybrids ? I'm sure if I hang around here long enough someone will tell me that a Harbor Frieght wood lathe is as good, if not better then an Oliver wood lathe.

one thing that really upsets me both in my professional life and otherwise is someone making smart remarks that doesn't or hasn't even looked at what is the topic.

the hybried saws have hard mounted motors t0 the arbor assemblies with fixed belts. that is exactly what the BT uses. The only advantages to the new hybrids is that they are using induction motors rather then the universal motor of the bt 3x00. The bt3x00 saws if anything have a beefier arbor assembly then most others. The other hybrid saws have large boxes around them and weigh more. but, as has been brought up before if the Br3x00 saw is built into a base that issue is completely removed.

The ultimate failure of the BT3x00 saws has been the motors. As an electrical person I change my brushes at least every 18 months and check them every 6 months. I doubt that the motor will ever burn out as long as the brushes are maintained. This goes for any brush type tool.

for a hobbyist which I am, I would not go away from the bt3xoo unless it was to a larger shop and then possibly to a full blown cabinet saw. But then i would only be gaining faster cutting on thick woods which i don't do much off.

I would put the BT3Xoo saws against any of the comparable sized saws and it would walk away.

[Charlie]

Charlie,

The type of design you came up with is built into the BT3100. If you can get to the old posts part of this forum, you can find my BT3100 on it's portable base.

Your comments on accuracy suggest either you have not used a BT3100 or you used one that was not adjusted correctly. The rip fence of the BT3100 locks at both the front and the back and will hold it's adjustments very well. I still lack the depth in front of the blade of a hybrid or cabinet saw but that is usually not an issue. I prefer to crosscut on my CMS or radial arm saw but those that like the sliding miter table get good accuracy from it too.

One of the features of the BT3100 that contribute to its accuracy is a micro adjuster for the rip fence. Using the micro adjuster it is very easy to move the rip fence a precise 1/64 inch or less. Even most cabinet saws and certainly your contractors saw did not come with this feature. It was an accessory for the Ryobi too but it works very well. Jim

Hello Jim, if you could find the post on your saw that would be great. I'd like to see it. As far as a fence that locks front and back, if you remember, many, many years ago Delta had what I think they called a Jetlock fence, it locked front and back, and it had a micro adjuster, it became pretty much obsolete after the Biesemeyer, Unifence, etc. came out. Nearly all of the higher end fences lock only on the front rail. The depth in front of the blade is important, you get more material to contact the fence before it hits the blade, think of it like a jointer. I think it's safer also. I'll agree with you on the crosscuts, the compound miter saw is where I go, and once again I feel is safer. And your right, I've never used a Bt table saw, just common sense tells me that the saw is mediocure. I've never been a huge fan of Ryobi, although I do have a few of their tools, Remember the Quik-Stand ? why they still don't make that is way beyond me. I also have a Ryobi 12" planer thats been ok, I have a Ryobi variable speed mini lathe that I maybe used once, seemed ok. Then one year I got a Ryobi detail sander, used it once and sold it, I wasn't impressed at all. I did some reading on the net about the BT's lastnight. The reviews were all good, but they also rated the saw as a very good entry level benchtop table saw. And I'll agree with that, but there are also other choices. Used American iron isn't a bad way to go either if you know what to look for.

[3thumbs]

I have been a member here for a couple of years. I had never heard of a BT3100 before I joined, and still to this day, I have never even seen one.
DM

[Sawatzky]

The BT3100 has been discontinued for a number of years, so if memebers joined the forum after that they probably would not have seen one. Since the discontinuation of the saw, there have not been a lot of people asking questions about it. But, this forum's name is directlyy related to the BT series saws.

[3thumbs]

The BT3100 has been discontinued for a number of years, so if memebers joined the forum after that they probably would not have seen one. Since the discontinuation of the saw, there have not been a lot of people asking questions about it. But, this forum's name is directlyy related to the BT series saws.

I understand that this forum is related to that saw. I am just saying that I have never seen one for sale, nor have I ever seen one in a shop. None of my wood working friends has owned one either. Good or bad, just not common in my experience.
DM

[JimD]

https://www.sawdustzone.org/articles...er-base-option

I think that link will get you to the article on my saw I entitled "Spruce and Sandeply". If not, if you to the BT3x section of this website and the link at the top to the old articles, you will find it. There is lots of information there if you really want to know about the BT3100. It is a belt driven saw with about 3.5 inches depth of cut. It will easily pass the "nickel test". The article was written before I added a maple raised panel door to the right hand compartment and oak flat panel doors to the compartment on the left and a cherry fronted drawer on the bottom in the middle. So the finished saw looks a little different but is functionally as described in the article.

I guess I can understand people wanting to link the BT3000/3100 to similar sized benchtop tools but it is simply not what these saws are. A little research, or listening to those of us that own them, will let you know otherwise.

With respect to rip fences fastening front and back or only front, I am aware that the Bisemeyer locks only front and works fine. I think the Vega locks on both ends. One disadvantage of only locking on one end is you cannot use a hold-down device that pushes down on the table because it lifts the fence. I know of no other drawbacks. But there are really no drawbacks of the BT3100 front and back system either. And I can use my wheeled hold-down anti-kick-back thingy.

I agree that used saws, including used contractors saws, are a reasonable way to go. I just think the BT3100 is a pretty good choice too - when the price is reasonable.

Jim

[tseavoy]

I have had a Rockwell Delta table saw for over 45 years now, and I bought it used. It has never failed me, I don't adjust anything, the fence locks at both front and back, the cuts are as accurate as I can measure.
Years ago, I also had a Sears "contractor's" saw. This was a sliding blade saw, but it slid from underneath. A handle coming over the blade was used to pull the saw through the work. The blade crabbed through the work. If I shimmed the carriage to avoid this, it would bind. It really was a rough work saw.

Just adding to the chaos.

Tom on Marrowstone

At my age I have come to realize that the important things are
Faster horses,
Younger women,
Older whiskey, and
More money

(Tom T. Hall)

[eezlock]

advice on tablesaw choice

Welcome to the forum, first off. You have two good choices in these two saws.

(1) The Rockwell is a good/decent contractor saw of a solid basic design
that has been around for 40 yrs. or more and is still in service in a lot of
homeshops and small commercial cabinet shops. That Biese fence and
saw blade are worth more than the cost of the saw, if you were buy
new ones

(2) Bt3x00 saw is a good homeshop/casual user saw. It is a little more
finicky, when it comes to adjusting things on the saw and generally
likes to be used in one location as opposed to being moved around.

(3) I have two saws in my shop right now, one is a BT3100, the other a
Northstate 10" cast iron contractor saw with a 2hp motor on it. There
are things I like about both of them, but if I were doing it again...I
most likely would go with the cast iron contractor saw...personal
prefrence/observation.

[tkarlmann]

What about the Sears Model (BT saw equiv)

It probably has a lot to do with the fact that the BT is no longer marketed as such. It's not really negative toward a BT when someone prefers a characteristic of another saw over the BT. There are some advantages to other designs too.

What about the Sears equivalent saw? What does marketing a saw have to do with it's capabilities?

That post sounds like Congress worrying about letting the top-brass of the big three automakers go because they were afraid they'd "lose the talent". I got news for ya: The talent and the capabilities ain't in the Marketing departments!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Knottscott]

What about the Sears equivalent saw? What does marketing a saw have to do with it's capabilities?

That post sounds like Congress worrying about letting the top-brass of the big three automakers go because they were afraid they'd "lose the talent". I got news for ya: The talent and the capabilities ain't in the Marketing departments!!!!!!!!!!!!

My comment addressed possible reasons why so many BT Central members are becoming dark siders, and included no comments about the capabilities, or lack thereof, of the BT. Not everyone knows about the Craftsman version, or realizes it's the same saw, some won't buy anything from Sears, and some may not be willing to spend the money.

Regardless of the potential accuracy of the BT, it's capabilities, or your apparent strong feelings for this machine, it's still too light, too small, too loud, too finnicky, and too unorthodox for my liking (as were your comments) ...it's not for everyone.

[vaking]

What about the Sears equivalent saw? What does marketing a saw have to do with it's capabilities?

That post sounds like Congress worrying about letting the top-brass of the big three automakers go because they were afraid they'd "lose the talent". I got news for ya: The talent and the capabilities ain't in the Marketing departments!!!!!!!!!!!!

I disagree.
The Craftsman version is still around and it is a decent saw but this version in my opinion is poorly packaged and marketed.
1). Craftsman saw comes on folding base so it looks like a job-site saw. It is also labeled "Craftsman Professional" implying it was meant for a professional use. This saw is neither. It is light duty - unfit for professional use. It is too delicate to be used as job-site saw. Job-site saw needs to be heavier duty but does not need accuracy of BT3. A folding base may come-in handy for a hobbyist working in the small space in the garage who needs his saw put away after every use. For a professional this saw would be a poor choice.

2). Craftsman saw comes packaged with router mounting kit to make a router table within the same saw. That accesory is, in my opinion, useless. I know I have that kit for my BT3100 and I am not using it. Usefull accesories for that saw are extension rails, micro-adjuster, long rip fence - none of that is included with Craftsman saw and most people don't even know they exist.

There were plenty examples of companies that made decent products but failed because of lousy marketing. There are also examples of companies who won thanks to marketing talent while having mediocre product. Need examples - ask BIll Gates.

In my opinion problem of BT3 saw is that it does not fit standard categorization and has no sizable market to be sold to. Standard saw categories are either heavy duty saws for professionals or light duty saws for homeowners. Within professional saws there are higher end systems that are heavy duty and accurate, there are mid-range systems that are heavy-duty and less accurate. High end features can often be added to mid-range saws (like few hundred dollar fence). Typical homeowner saw is light duty and does not have high end features. BT3 saw is light duty but with high end features. Those features make it accurate when properly tuned. Its market - hobbyist woodworker who wants to make high end furniture in his spare time. How big do you think is this market? May be there are people who want it but there are very few people with skills to do it. So I think Ryobi discontinued this saw after years of attempts to make profit on it. Ryobi home base are homeowners doing home repairs, not artists - furniture makers. Ryobi is simply sticking to its guns. Craftsman is making a crazy attempt to market this saw in yet one more inventive way. May be somebody will like an idea of having a saw and a router table together in the back of the truck in one neat package. Does not seem to be working - not really a surprise.

Don't get me wrong - I have BT3100 myself and I love it. I don't want another saw as long as this one works. But I am a hobbyist. In the field where I am a professional - I will not buy a cheaper tool that requires a lot of maintenance to stay accurate. I'd rather pay upfront for a more solid tool.

[natausch]

Well thought out post Vaking.

There are many things I love about my BT3K, but a few things do stand out. The aluminum tabletop probably the most significant. As long as I'm in a 2 car garage though I'll need a semi-portable saw that has a smaller profile.

Lets face it, if you're going to only be making a few pieces of furniture a year as a hobby the Hybrid saws are more than sufficient for your needs. Putting Cabinet saws in a part-time shop is probably an indication your hobby is collecting tools, not making sawdust.