Order of operations on kitchen remodel

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  • atgcpaul
    Veteran Member
    • Aug 2003
    • 4055
    • Maryland
    • Grizzly 1023SLX

    Order of operations on kitchen remodel

    So I started remodeling the kitchen this weekend. Why do I do this to myself?!!!

    You can see the exploratory hole I drilled in the soffit. I already removed the upper cabinet in this pic. There was always that pass through window.



    The pantry unit needed a little Sawzall surgery and the base cabinet came out without a problem. I'm kinda' regretting curbing it and not using it in the garage as a base for my lathe or sharpening center. Anyway...




    Not going to bore you with the details but after some unnecessary demo work we're relocated the fridge to the right side of this space and I'll be building a base and upper cabinet to the left and a cabinet over the fridge.

    I already moved that outlet on the right to the back left wall and I ran a new 20A dedicated circuit for the fridge. I have to move the fridge water line, too. The existing one is tapped off the main with a saddle valve and I'm going to something safer. The existing valve won't shut off--DAMHIK. The current water line just comes up through a hole drilled in the floor and connects to the fridge. Is that common practice or should I go through the bottom plate and let the line come out of some box in the wall?

    I put down some 1/4" luan where the cabinets used to be. I'm going to rip out the old vinyl and lay down vinyl plank flooring. I don't think I'm going to lay flooring where the new base cabinet will be, but will under the fridge--I will if I already have an opened package. I will lay plank under the old fridge spot, too, although a new cabinet will be installed there. I'll also lay plank under the dishwasher. Right now the dishwasher is hardwired. Anyone switch it over to a plug-in? I could add a new outlet in the sink cabinet and add a plug to the dishwasher since I have to move the DW out anyway.

    Thanks,
    Paul
  • twistsol
    Veteran Member
    • Dec 2002
    • 2893
    • Cottage Grove, MN, USA.
    • Ridgid R4512, 2x ShopSmith Mark V 520, 1951 Shopsmith 10ER

    #2
    On the fridge line, I've seen it done both ways. I personally add a recessed box with a shutoff for fridge connections. I've never seen a dishwasher with a plug, but unless there is some code against it, I wouldn't see an issue.
    Chr's
    __________
    An ethical man knows the right thing to do.
    A moral man does it.

    Comment

    • Burg53
      Forum Newbie
      • Nov 2003
      • 40
      • Hillsdale, NJ, USA.

      #3
      For the water line I put a tee connection on the cold water line under the sink and ran a horizontal line through the wall to a recessed box with a shut-off valve behind the fridge. I think the recessed box and valve came as a kit from Home Depot. My old dishwasher was hard-wired to a line coming up through the floor. I hired an electrician for the electrical work and he put in an outlet for the dishwasher. If I remember correctly he indicated that code now required an outlet, hard-wired was no longer allowed.

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      • greenacres2
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2011
        • 633
        • La Porte, IN
        • Ryobi BT3000

        #4
        Originally posted by Burg53
        For the water line I put a tee connection on the cold water line under the sink and ran a horizontal line through the wall to a recessed box with a shut-off valve behind the fridge. I think the recessed box and valve came as a kit from Home Depot. My old dishwasher was hard-wired to a line coming up through the floor. I hired an electrician for the electrical work and he put in an outlet for the dishwasher. If I remember correctly he indicated that code now required an outlet, hard-wired was no longer allowed.
        If it's GFCI protected, that would make sense to me over hardwired. Hadn't really considered it before--my DW was hardwired when we moved in 20 years ago, and each time I've replaced we just did it the same way.

        earl

        Comment

        • capncarl
          Veteran Member
          • Jan 2007
          • 3564
          • Leesburg Georgia USA
          • SawStop CTS

          #5
          My refrig has a wall box/valve/connection. It is convientely located dead in the center of the back of the 2 ton frig. What kind of idiot would do this? You have to wrestle the frig out a couple of feet in order to crawl over the counter and stretch to reach the valve. Very uncomfortable. If there was a leak I could see a lot of yelling and whining. Mount the valve where you can reach it!

          capncarl

          Comment

          • atgcpaul
            Veteran Member
            • Aug 2003
            • 4055
            • Maryland
            • Grizzly 1023SLX

            #6
            Originally posted by capncarl
            My refrig has a wall box/valve/connection. It is convientely located dead in the center of the back of the 2 ton frig. What kind of idiot would do this? You have to wrestle the frig out a couple of feet in order to crawl over the counter and stretch to reach the valve. Very uncomfortable. If there was a leak I could see a lot of yelling and whining. Mount the valve where you can reach it!

            capncarl
            Good point. I'm replacing the saddle valve with a different valve so it seems redundant to add yet another valve by the fridge. It would also introduce another point of failure.

            Comment

            • JimD
              Veteran Member
              • Feb 2003
              • 4187
              • Lexington, SC.

              #7
              My frig water line is under the sink which is right next to the frig. It is also a saddle valve but it is not high on my list of replacements. I don't love those valves but this house has bigger issues. It works for now. Most refrigerators are narrower near the bottom. That's handy when the water comes out of the floor (or out the bottom of a cabinet beside). If the wall you would put a box in is interior, I might put in a little box to make it look nicer. If it is exterior, I wouldn't just because it would decrease the insulation.

              Jim

              You don't need 20A for the refrigerator. 15A would be plenty, it probably only pulls less than 5A. I wouldn't spend the time to put in a box and outlet for the dishwasher. Locating it would be an issue and dishwashers generally last >10 years. Unscrewing a few wire nuts every 10-20 years doesn't justify the near term aggravation of putting in a box.

              Comment

              • capncarl
                Veteran Member
                • Jan 2007
                • 3564
                • Leesburg Georgia USA
                • SawStop CTS

                #8
                If you did tie the ice maker water back in to a valve under the sink, at least most everybody knows where it is. Not a bad location for this kind of valve, but a terribly lousy location for a water filter.
                capncarl

                Comment

                • chopnhack
                  Veteran Member
                  • Oct 2006
                  • 3779
                  • Florida
                  • Ryobi BT3100

                  #9
                  Paul, you have probably worked all of this out, but have you given your floor plan for the new kitchen a thorough review? I ask because you mention relocating the refridge to a new area. Most kitchens are small and everything has been tightly packed in accordingly. Just a friendly heads up, you don't want to spend all this time and find that something doesn't line up, especially because you usually find this out as your installing the last few cabinets
                  Best of luck with your project
                  I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

                  Comment

                  • atgcpaul
                    Veteran Member
                    • Aug 2003
                    • 4055
                    • Maryland
                    • Grizzly 1023SLX

                    #10
                    Originally posted by chopnhack
                    Paul, you have probably worked all of this out, but have you given your floor plan for the new kitchen a thorough review?
                    Valid point.

                    I think our kitchen is on the small side. The area opposite the area I show is 9x11. Moving this fridge will give us an extra 3' of counterspace where we need it most. We have a U shaped counter that only affords us 8' of counterspace right now. It's difficult for 2 people to work in here. We thought about expanding the kitchen into either the living room or dining room, but for one reason or another it didn't pan out--mostly because I'm doing the work and won't be hiring the crew of TOH to do it.

                    The new fridge door will stick out into the existing walkway several inches because of the door thickness. We're getting one with French doors so when open, it will probably block most of that 30" walkway, but hard to tell right now without it being here. I think that's something we can learn to live with--I hope. There's currently a double swinging door in the walkway and it takes up 7" of space. We figure the new fridge door would take up an equivalent amount so we'd already be used to being squeezed down--at least that's what we're telling ourselves.

                    Comment

                    • JimD
                      Veteran Member
                      • Feb 2003
                      • 4187
                      • Lexington, SC.

                      #11
                      Our new house - new to us - is almost 50 years old and needs remodeling including bathrooms and the kitchen. I will not do anything major until I have it down on paper - in this case electronically. I've purchased a highly rated program for this and need to load it and get the house into it. I did this on the last house to get furniture placement. It allowed us to decide the living room needed to be bigger (we built that one). It's a WHOLE lot easier to change a drawing than a house. The better programs have libraries of applicances and furniture so you don't have to draw everything. I paid about $100 for the program I bought. I figure I can easily save that back through a better design and less wasted effort/money.

                      Comment

                      • capncarl
                        Veteran Member
                        • Jan 2007
                        • 3564
                        • Leesburg Georgia USA
                        • SawStop CTS

                        #12
                        Refrigerator sizes change so much that it makes no sense to create a cavity in the kitchen cabinets for it because the next one will not fit. In my 6 year old house the next refrigerator will probably not fit at all because the hole is now full and will require a major cabinet re-work.
                        capncarl

                        Comment

                        • vaking
                          Veteran Member
                          • Apr 2005
                          • 1428
                          • Montclair, NJ, USA.
                          • Ryobi BT3100-1

                          #13
                          There is a fair amount of theory about kitchen design. Distances in the magic triangle (refrigerator-stove-sink), sizes of walkways, amount of counter space around each major appliance, amount of shelf space for storage - everything has a formula. Formulas are different for small kitchens vs large ones (Kitchen less than 150 sf is considered small).
                          I suggest that you consult with a professional kitchen designer to make a plan - it is a lot better than hoping you will get used to small walkways, etc.

                          When we bought this house (more than 15 years ago) - kitchen was completely dysfunctional. Our predecessors did not have fridge in the kitchen at all - fridge was standing in the closet in the hallway outside of the kitchen. And our kitchen is not small - about 175 sf, but very oddly shaped. We have 3 doors in the kitchen, 2 windows, wet wall that delivers plumbing to the second floor, etc. We badly needed a remodel. Money was very tight and we did everything ourselves, both design and actual work (I did hire a plumber). We stole a little bit of space from adjacent family room - we made a recess about 1 foot deep for one appliance. It was a fight over approximately 5 square feet of space and it was a major work but it was worth it. Our design was much better than what we had before but it was far from perfect. We moved stove into that recess that we built. There is a formula to calculate counter space around stove, which suggests that moving stove in recess is not a good idea. We were putting stove into the recess that was only 1 foot deep, so only half of stove's depth. There were half-depth counters around the stove and we were hoping we would get used to it. No, we did not.
                          12 years later we did another kitchen remodel to address all the mistakes we did the first time. Again - design and work was ours but this time we were much smarter. Instead of stove - refrigerator went into the recess. Stove moved back to the same place where our predecessors had it. In fact - comparing our current design with various designs that existed in our kitchen in the past - it is funny. Our house was built in 1927 - there were no refrigerators at the time, so our kitchen did not have space for one. But other than that - kitchen design was not bad at all.. Our predecessors made some changes and most of them were counter-productive. We made major changes trying to improve and again - many changes were not very smart. The recess that we built allowed us to bring refrigerator into the kitchen but other than that - we reverted a lot to the design that existed in our kitchen back in 1920s.
                          Alex V

                          Comment

                          • JimD
                            Veteran Member
                            • Feb 2003
                            • 4187
                            • Lexington, SC.

                            #14
                            Not everybody can look at a drawing and understand what it says. My late wife could not. But my current wife is at least decent at it. If you can read drawings - understand what it will look like based upon the drawing - it is very worthwhile to draw it out. I have an old parallel line board I use to make sketches. Even my crude drawings help me understand how it will turn out. We need shelves in the great room of the current house. The wall is 16.5 feet tall where we want the shelves. Width is constrained by a staircase and wall. How wide and tall should the shelves go? Should they have a 2 foot deep cabinet on the bottom, a sketch will help us decide. Hopefully the sketch will be done in our new software.

                            The modern home planning software says you can do a 3D walk-through when you're done. I'm not counting on that working but the neat thing about the computerized software is the ability to have a bunch of ideas sketched out and stored. Changes are simple. But loading up the current design so you can get started is just a chore. The programs also know sizes of appliances so you can place them. After the chrunch of "do-it-now" projects is complete, the software is going to help plan the next round. The next round will include kitchen and bathroom overhauls. Our kitchen layout isn't bad except for the oven. We have a cooktop and a wall oven which is nice, except the wall oven is 24 inches wide. It fits into a recess in the brick chimney so I can't expand it to the normal 30 inches or even the in-between 27. If things stay in the same place I will build a cabinet for a double oven at least 27 inches wide. But the cooktop is hard to clean (white surface) so maybe I can get off with a range with a double oven. It's a ways off at the moment. This weekend is putting legs on the dock, then hopefully giving my wife a faucet that works on her sink and maybe put in a functional water softener. We're still on the basics - but have been in the house less than a week at this point.

                            Jim

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                            • atgcpaul
                              Veteran Member
                              • Aug 2003
                              • 4055
                              • Maryland
                              • Grizzly 1023SLX

                              #15
                              We've gone through a few iterations on graph paper and Sketchup but it really came down to how much money do we (I) want to spend and how long are we (she) willing to wait. We also know this is not going to be our "forever" house.

                              Other than the new space in the back marked New Fridge and where I've drawn the counter for the old fridge, this is our kitchen. The walls on either side where stove and old fridge are/were are load bearing. The stove wall is a half wall that looks through to the dining room. There are cabinets above that space that hang from a suspended wall from the ceiling. I will be building cabinets on the back side of that wall on the dining room side. The old fridge wall has open shelving for plates and bowls. That is getting replaced with new uppers with glass doors from, don't kill me, IKEA. I'll be making new doors for the stove wall uppers with glass to match.



                              That big block to the right of the New Fridge contains a pantry accessible from the other side as well as the air return from the 2nd floor to the basement and air ducting from basement to kitchen register and 2nd floor.

                              Although that stove wall is load bearing (there's a post at the corner of that stove counter next to the walkway I didn't draw), we considered moving the stove wall 1-2 feet towards the dining room because there were no studs in the way. It's a large dining room (used to be the living room), but then we'd be right up against the gas fireplace insert. Insert is flush to wall; I drew the hearth. Wife wants to keep the insert although we never use it.

                              We also talked about swapping the LR for DR (how it used to be) and moving the existing LR wall into the LR space. That, too, is load bearing and there are several utilities like electric and plumbing going up that wall as well as studs which would need to replaced with probably a bigger beam, etc. The last item (beam install) I was not up for.

                              Anyway, so that's what we've got.

                              BTW, I replaced the saddle valve last night. I've been fine working with CPVC until last night. Glued up last connection and my bad, I didn't wait long enough for turning on the water. Small, slow drip. Back to HD for more parts. Come home, cut out the new work, and I'm installing the new stuff. Wife comes home from shopping. She knows I'm doing plumbing stuff but opens sink faucet which I guess broke the vacuum from that section and sent water down to the pipe I'm working on just as I finished applying the cement and was about to put it together. Had to wait for all the dripping to stop, clean up the glue which had now melted away a bit of the pipe and hoped and prayed as I reattached it. That time I waited the full hour and everything seems to be fine.

                              Here's what the inside of the pipe looks like where the saddle sat for probably 16 years--age of the house. No wonder I couldn't shut off that valve! Glad that saddle valve is gone!



                              Paul

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