Questions for the gun enthusiasts

[Black wallnut]

After a fair amount of practice you will be able to feel the difference between a smooth trigger and one that is not. Smooth is like a breaking of glass sensation. Creep is another item that sometimes has to be eliminated, not to be confused with free travel.

Double-taps will if done correctly and depending on the cycle rate of the weapon will place the second bullet 3 to 5 inches above the first one, never on top of the first.

[just started]

The most important customization for a carry gun is feed ramp polishing, you need reliability more than anything else.

[JR]

I think that generally, it depends on the Sheriff of your county (or police chief in the city). For renewal, for example, they're supposed to evaluate whether or not the reason for getting a CCW still exists. I think that around here, it's pretty much automatic unless some other things disqualify you.

I'm very surprised it's so easy to get CCW in your county. I remember reading that in LA County Sheriff Baca issues less than five permits a year, and they generally go to bona fide "body gaurd" types.

I don't know how exactly how it works in my county, but I believe it's similar to LA County. I had assumed it was the same throughout the state.

Interesting.

JR

[Tom Slick]

according to www.calccw.com LA Co. issued 1289 permits in 2006, they were ranked 10th of all the counties. Mendocino Co. was #9 with 1378 and Kern Co. was #1 with 4006.

Ventura Co. sheriff issued 646 in 2005. that's not including any Police in the county.

[JR]

Yeah, Tom, I guess I mis-remembered!

Here's a short thread with an anecdote on topic for Ventura County. http://californiaccw.org/posts/list/4588.page

Note the woman's comment that many people think this kind of permit should not be allowed. That's a very SoCal POV.

JR

[Anna]

Tom, that is interesting information re CCW statistics.

The population of Mendocino County is about 90,000 with a land area of about 3500 sq.mi. It's very sparsely populated in many areas, and the LEOs have decided that people are better off being trained and armed rather than wait for help that could take an hour in coming.

There are lots of things I don't like about this county. Too many hippies and touchy-feely types, for one. And I'm told we're the pot-growing capital of California.

So I was pleasantly surprised to find that Mendocino is pretty much a shall-issue county. The gun training program at the gun club and the college was started by a District Attorney, one of the instructors is a former police officer, and the other instructor is a sitting judge. I think it also gives the CCW holders some degree of caution because, you know, the judge knows you by name!

[JimD]

Anna,

I will try to explain stopping power without getting gross. Animals (or people but I prefer to think about shooting animals) die because either their central nervous system shuts down or they loose too much blood. Central nervous system requires a hit to the head or spine which are smallish targets. A solid hit with enough penetration will result in immediate stoppage. A center mass hit kills by blood loss and organ shutdown - not quick events. If the animal stops, it is an emotional reaction to being hit, not because they expire instantly. You cannot count on the emotional reaction. I have seen a rabbit run across the field when it was dead. Deer go 50 yards or more after a hit to vital organs.

A "through and through", hole in both sides, will result in much more rapid blood loss than one hole. A bigger hole will also increase blood loss but one big hole in one side is not as good as a through and through. The other reason for penetration is to reach something vital. That is part of the FBI logic. If you have to go through muscle tissue and possibly a bone or two to get to something vital, you need more than just half the chest depth worth of penetration. If all you do is go through an arm, it is good for the survival of the target but that could be bad for you.

You cannot knock an animal down unless it is really small. The animal gets less impact than you do shooting the gun. If you are still in place it will not fly off it's feet unless it is very small and the round very big. All the stuff in the movies is just stuff.

Expansion is a good thing but not at the expense of sufficient penetration. I have seen an extreme example of why - a deer hit by a bullet meant for a varmit with a nasty surface wound but still very much alive a significant time later. A 380 with an expanding round might still have sufficient penetration but I would not trust my life to it without testing.

Jim

[Tom Slick]

OT
I vacationed in Ft. Bragg last year while driving up the coast to Oregon. Mendocino county is a neat place

[LCHIEN]

A couple of points to consider in this expansion vs penetration issue.

If you are defending your home/house or even protecting yourself in a urban environment, a expanding bullet will offer less harm to others (probably innocent) nearby since the bullet will lose a lot of energy in a wall which is what you want.

And a bad guy would have to be pretty motivated to continue coming on with a 3-4 inch hole in him... I guess there's some philosophical issues as to whether you want to kill him or just stop him.

[Black wallnut]

JimD makes a bunch of good points. The idea behind hollow point bullets is to tranfer 100% of the energy to the intended target. With a bullet designed for penetration rather than expansion that exits the intended target the bullet does not transfer all its energy to the target. For this reason some choose to stager different types of bullets in a carry gun.

There is no absolute right answer that will fit every situation. It is best to learn as much as one can and understand the limatations of what one uses.

FWIW IMHO progress peaked with the invention of the 1911A1 colt in .45ACP. With the many different availble combinations the platform can be made to fit a wide range of hand sizes. However, IMHO the use of an auto loader requires more training and practise and does have limitations. Double action revolvers are IMHO a better tool for those that do not have the time or willingness to practise or may be needing to shoot in bitter cold temps. The double action revolver is much simpler, eaiser to learn to shoot and more reliable.

[Anna]

I guess there's some philosophical issues as to whether you want to kill him or just stop him.

I was having this same argument in one of the women and guns forum the other day. I made the mistake of saying "shoot to kill," and they corrected me by saying it's really "shoot to stop," with the killing part as just an unfortunate consequence.

For newbies like me, there's not much of a distinction (yet). We're programmed that the mere presence of a gun is dangerous. I know that's stupid now, but I've had years of having this drilled in my head in school and in the community and media.

Anyway, I'm right now researching on how to make my own ballistic gelatin for testing. I'll talk to the gun club guys to see if there's any interest in this project. It might be worthwhile for the newbies to do anyway.

[JR]

according to www.calccw.com LA Co. issued 1289 permits in 2006, they were ranked 10th of all the counties. Mendocino Co. was #9 with 1378 and Kern Co. was #1 with 4006.

Ventura Co. sheriff issued 646 in 2005. that's not including any Police in the county.

That's a good site, but it's clearly difficult for them to keep the stats up to date. The 2006 information isn't presented in complete context.

From 2005, I notice that the city of Los Angeles (pop. ~4 million) issued 14 CCW permits, compared to 336 for the county of Los Angeles (another 4 million people) and 646 for Ventura Co. (pop. ~750k). The LA Co. city of Long Beach (pop. ~1M) issued one CCW permint in 2005.

Humboldt, Anna's county (pop. <200,000), issued 1014 that year.

It's very interesting that the local police have so much discretion as to the application of the law.

JR

[Anna]

Humboldt, Anna's county (pop. <200,000), issued 1014 that year.

Mendocino County, actually.

I just got a double action only revolver on loan, and it's really stiff. I need much more effort to pull the trigger. If a Sig requires 10 lbs, I'd think this revolver is at least 12 or 15.

I honestly don't see the advantage of a double action revolver over a Glock or even a DA/SA like the Sig. Why is it easier to shoot in the cold? And how is it more reliable?

I already learned the sliding-thing-to-load-it part (d*mn those technical terms!) for the semi autos, although I did get another small cut on my finger because I forgot to keep it away from the slider as it snapped back. Is the loading part the hardest to learn for semi autos?

[Anna]

Expansion is a good thing but not at the expense of sufficient penetration.

One question: Isn't it expansion coupled with fragmentation that really stops the bad guy? I read about football-shaped bullet paths in ballistic gel, and that's supposed to create the most damage.

We were told anecdotes of guys getting shot with twenty .22 caliber bullets, and that pretty much never stops them. They eventually die just because the damage is so great, but it takes time. One woman in town a few years ago got lucky, though. Her ex was threatening to kill her, so she got a single-shot 22 caliber pistol. When the ex broke down her door, she shot him, and he just dropped down. Turned out the bullet hit the aorta and then hit the spine (which caused him to drop) and hit another organ. By the time the police got to her, he was dead.

I asked my husband - he's a doctor who used to work in the emergency room and has some experience with members of the "Friday Night Guns and Knives Club" - which injuries are the easiest to treat. He said the through-and-through bullet wounds are the easiest because you just follow the path of the bullet and patch the guy up. It's the ones where the bullet practically explodes inside the guy that causes the worst damage.

It's all anecdotal to me, and I have no idea what really is the right thing. It makes sense that the bullet has to penetrate in order to cause damage. I'm now very curious about how well a 380 will actually penetrate, and at some point later this year, I'm going to do that ballistics test and find out once and for all.

[JR]

Mendocino County, actually.

Oops, my apologies.

Mendocino Co., pop. ~100,000, issued 1257 CCW permits in '05.

JR