Questions for the gun enthusiasts

[RAV2]

Noticed you live in CA. Laws there are even more stringent than in MA - so buying ammo thru the mail is almost impossible. Even when you clear up the legal mumbo-jumbo for the state the place will probably not ship to your state.

Since you took the CCW class, you might want to begin to explore the club where you took the class. Local members are your best source of info.

Walmart prices are hard to beat (also Basspro, Dick's, Cabelas - storefronts only). I buy for my club by the truck load and have taken advantage of Dick's case price discounts upon occasion when their deals beat my distributers.

As far as a carry gun, you'll get as many different responses with no correct answer. I carry a Seecamp because it can be hidden in a pair of shorts and therefore is always available. The finest handgun does you no good when it is not available when you need to use it. The deterent factor of possessing a handgun when needed (by a skilled - confident - user) is often enough to difuse a situation.

[Anna]

I knew that if I was wrong that he would correct me. Sorry about that.

Well, we have to let them think they're right once in a while.

I spent a few minutes at the gun shop and got a little more education. The guy behind the counter is a former Marine, and he really knows his guns. I asked him to explain the different kinds of ammo to me, so now I understand what the difference is between hollow point, full metal jacket, and power ball. There's also the other one with the little pointy thingy inside the hollow point (Hydrashock?). In any case, I finally understand why some bullets are for practice and some are for carrying.

I also tried the different guns again, and I really miss the Sig. The Springfield XD is still a little big for me, but it felt good. The Glock also feels good, but it's a little light and plasticky (I know it's really not plastic, but it felt that way). The Kahr cw9 is even worse than the p9 which gave me the bad recoil experience. He didn't have many Smith&Wessons besides the big caliber ones.

So, the upshot is: Sig 232 using hollow point for carrying. The really good ammo costs more than $1 per round, but it'll probably be worth it.

I called the CCW instructor and asked if we're allowed to buy ammo over the internet, and he said yes. He casts his own bullets, though, and I'm hoping to get him to teach me some of those techniques. He volunteered to sponsor me for club membership, which is great.

I've started to get my husband used to the idea that I'm going to eventually do my own reloading. When I first excitedly told him that I really like shooting and can I please buy a gun, he rolled his eyes at me and reminded me that I looked exactly the same way when I told him that I really like woodworking and can I please buy some power tools. I think he was mentally calculating how much this particular hobby is going to cost. All I can say is that it's still cheaper than psychotherapy. Although at some point, he might conclude that I need psychotherapy anyway.

Oh, and I put in my CCW application today. The Sheriff's office said it'll take about two weeks. Not bad. Having the CCW will also allow me to buy guns in California.

[quesne]

I shoot both pistols and rifles a lot, so I hate to pay a lot for ammo. I never got into hand loading, so I buy my ammo in bulk.

I have bought from all of the following companies on-line, and I can't remember having problems with any of them:

http://www.wholesalehunter.com
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com
http://www.coledistributing.com
http://www.dansammo.com
http://www.kiesler.com
http://www.jgsales.com

Good luck and shoot safely!

[Tom Slick]

In California...
It's nuts. But it's much more liberal (in the classic sense) than I expected. I think the worst place to carry a weapon is probably New York State.

CA's gun laws are not as wacky as people expect them to be.

What did you have to do to get your permit?

[Anna]

CA's gun laws are not as wacky as people expect them to be.

What did you have to do to get your permit?

Tom, I really was surprised when I read the gun laws in California. I'm amazed, for example, that we're not required to register guns we already own as long as we keep them in our place of residence or business. I thought that at the very least, they'll require registration of all firearms.

The CCW permit depends on the county you live in. In my case, to get a permit, I had to take a CCW certification class. One of the guys at our local gun club handles the class. On our first day, the sheriff himself stopped by. The law enforcement people here are all very supportive of CCW because they know they can't be everywhere all the time.

After lectures on the law and self defense, etc, we're taught the practical aspects of shooting, then we did practice shots. We had to pass certification by shooting a target from different distances, including single-handed shooting. Passing score is 80% of the shots had to hit the target which is about 12" by 10".

Once we pass, we get a certificate specifying which weapons we're certified in (make, model, caliber and serial number). We take that piece of paper to the Sheriff's office and fill out an application form from the DOJ. A deputy sheriff will call for a face to face interview, then fingerprinting. They send the application to DoJ in Sacramento, then we wait for background check to come in.

The Sheriff's office mails the permit to us. I'm told it takes all of 2 weeks. It probably depends on where you're from, though. A friend of mine who lives in Sacramento said it's next to impossible to get one there. Oh, there's a part in the application that asks for a reason why you want a CCW. In our county, all we need to say is "personal protection." I think in some other counties, you really have to have a good reason - threat on your life, dangerous job, etc - and they might still deny you.

[Tom Slick]

Did you need a "reason".

all of my firearms are old enough that they were never registered.

[iceman61]

I don't know how it is elsewhere, but in Tennessee your CC permit number is also your Drivers License number. We were told that in the event you get pulled over, you need to inform the officer that you have a permit & that you have a weapon on you or it could get hairy. I used to speed alot & got pulled over a few times, & everytime the officer seemed to treat me better than usual for some reason. Maybe because I was truthful with him up front, who knows.

[Anna]

Tom, there's an entire page on the application form that's specifically for explaining your reason/s to carry. At the class, the instructors very pointedly stated that in our case, the Sheriff does not want to read more than two words: Personal Protection.

I think that generally, it depends on the Sheriff of your county (or police chief in the city). For renewal, for example, they're supposed to evaluate whether or not the reason for getting a CCW still exists. I think that around here, it's pretty much automatic unless some other things disqualify you.

Iceman, that situation came up in our hypotheticals. One of the instructors is a judge (my county is sooo cool ). He said that if you're caught speeding, you don't have to declare that you have CCW, unless the cop asks directly. In which case, you don't lie. Of course if your gun is in the glove compartment or purse and you have to get your registration, then it makes sense to let the cop know, just to avoid misunderstandings.

There were other hypotheticals like can we bring a gun to San Francisco, or what if we bring it with us inside a federal building, etc. The judge sort of warned us to not make a test case out of it. They really want the CCW program to continue, and they don't want to give the gun control people any excuse to take the program away.

[BrazosJake]

Warning: slippery slope ahead!!!

I used to reload, cast bullets, scrounge brass, lead. That's one reason I always favored wheelguns, they're less finicky about what they eat, and no searching for wayward brass:-) My autoloader cohorts used to be more concerned about where their brass was going than their bullet.

I've been away from it for some time and was a rabid..err..avid, reloader, plus always shot on outdoor ranges, so I dunno much about factory ammo for indoor use. I would suggest checking out MidwayUSA, Black Hills, or Dillon Precision web sites, and, locally, if there's an Academy store near you. The last factory ammo I bought was .45 ACP from Academy, and I was surprised at how cheap, but can't recall the price.

Yes, it is wonderful, and addicting. I recently unlimbered my old S&W .44 spl and let fly with some big old lead wadcutters I had loaded a decade ago. They still make a big, gratifying hole in whatever they hit. Alas, I sold the LBT bullet mold from whence they came to help finance the WW habit:-(

My next major tool purchase may get put off in favor of a new .45 ACP (also sold my Smith 25-2 and Springfield 1911) and/or a Dillon progressive reloader. Dunno about casting bullets again, but it's sure worth it if you have the time and inclination, not so much for the savings, but you can produce bullets that shoot way better than the under-sized and over-hard commerical-cast stuff.

The only autoloaders worth owning, IMO, are .22 lrs or 1911 .45 ACP.

[Bruce Cohen]

I think I love talking about guns almost as much as woodworking.

Let's put one misconception to rest, most revolvers and/or pistols (autos), just don't cut it right from the box.

Spend some time with your new friend (about 500 rounds or so) and take note of the things you don't like, grips, accuracy, sights, trigger pull, inability to feed (autos only) and whatever else sticks in your craw.

Find a GOOD gunsmith, hopefully from a recommendation and then discuss the cost of getting all or some of this work done. Plan on spending at least 3 time what you paid for your weapon, if you 're going to go the for the "Full Monty". If you're just looking for a decent trigger job, only slightly lightening the pull, but more important, taking up the slack and smoothing it, you're not looking at big money.

Also, you can "stage" your customization ove time, but that means you'll give up you gun for long periods of time every time you have work done. Most good 'smiths usually have a 1-6 month lead time just to start the work.

The main thing is to get as much reliability and accuracy (but remember, most shoot outs take place in under 7-10 yards), that you can.

There's a heck of a lot of butchers out there and they can quickly ruin your gun beyond belief. You'll end up with an $800.00 doorstop.

I hate to thing what I spent on customizing my .45 Gold Cup and that was done more than 20 years ago by the now deceased "master" of the .45- Austin Behlert. It was expensive then, couldn't fathom what it would cost now. At that time a brand new Gold Cup cost $300,00.

Be careful out there, the bad guys aren't just the one's that will try to mug you. There's many ways to get shafted (pun intended)

Bruce

[Black wallnut]

I think I love talking about guns almost as much as woodworking.

Let's put one misconception to rest, most revolvers and/or pistols (autos), just don't cut it right from the box.

edited to yada yada yada

Bruce

I must disagree! With the huge number of what is available these days it is likley that you can find a pistol that fits your wants or desires. Perhaps Bruce's experience is clouded by the fact that he bought Colt's which as they came from the factory were a wreck and did need a bunch of work just to feed hardball. Since Anna has her heart set on a Sig I think it is likely she will not have to get anything done to it. Lots of folks think they must have a 50 yard capable wad gun but most will never have the skill to know if they actually have one. Plus you do not always get exactly what you pay for. I purchased a Kimber that had to make two trips back to the Kimber Custom Shop for repair before it would reliably cycle ball and for 1/3 the cost a Springfield that is reliable with anything and everything I've placed in the magazine. The Kimber does have better sights and is a bit more accurate.

[JimD]

This thread has evolved away from a stopping power discussion and that is probably a good thing for this forum but I will make one comment I will try and keep short.

Google for the FBI writeup on stopping power if you want a well throught through discussion of the topic.

For a 380, the penetration will not be great regardless of the bullet type. If you have expansion, you will be reducing penetration to potentially too little. FBI recommended 12 inches minimum which could require round nose projectiles in a 380. If you can get expansion while still getting enough penetration, that is preferable but if you have to choose, getting enough pentration is the recommended choice.

I test in wet newsprint. I get 5 or 6 shots into a block of newsprint (I tie it up with string loosely before immersing it in water). Articles I've seen indicate it is equivalent roughly to penetration of muscle tissue. 22 rimfires from a rifle go 6 to 8 inches. Centerfire rifles go 12 to 20 inches (150 grain Remington Corelokt versus 180 grain Nosler Partitions out of a 30-06). Hard cast 150 grain lead going only about 2,000 fps goes more than 36 inches (went out the back). The hard cast lead do not expand which makes a big difference.

Jim

[Anna]

Far be it for me to argue with the experts, but then it wouldn't be me if I didn't put up an argument of some sort. Everything I think I know right now are just based on stuff I've been reading. So please correct me if I'm wrong.

From what I've read, stopping power is related to expansion. The greater the expansion, the larger the disruption of internal organs, the more likely the bad guy stops. For greater penetration, the bullet has to hold more of its shape since less energy is then used up in expansion/breaking up the bullet into pieces.

This is one reason why hollow point bullets are recommended for carrying. They consistently show more stopping power because they expand more by design.

The FBI, on the other hand, prefer greater penetration because they look at prolonged gunfights with the bad guys behind cover, like car doors and such. It's not the same situation that most civilians will find themselves in. So for us, we should really worry more about stopping power/expansion rather than just penetration.

The other point is that a typical body may be 12 to 16 inches thick from front to center. That means that at the very least, we should want a penetration of 6 to 8 inches. We don't want the bullet to go through the body because that can be pretty bad in normal circumstances. So too much penetration can actually be bad.

So, that's the simplistic way I'm seeing it right now. If I got anything wrong, please let me know. This is all new to me, and I don't have much hands on experience to work out stuff for myself.

P.S. I think it's for this same reason that double taps are a good idea. If your bullet does not have too much penetration, having two bullets right after the other will generally mean you get the bullet deeper in the body. Er, right?

[Anna]

I think I love talking about guns almost as much as woodworking.

Let's put one misconception to rest, most revolvers and/or pistols (autos), just don't cut it right from the box.

Spend some time with your new friend (about 500 rounds or so) and take note of the things you don't like, grips, accuracy, sights, trigger pull, inability to feed (autos only) and whatever else sticks in your craw.

Find a GOOD gunsmith, hopefully from a recommendation and then discuss the cost of getting all or some of this work done. Plan on spending at least 3 time what you paid for your weapon, if you 're going to go the for the "Full Monty". If you're just looking for a decent trigger job, only slightly lightening the pull, but more important, taking up the slack and smoothing it, you're not looking at big money.

Also, you can "stage" your customization ove time, but that means you'll give up you gun for long periods of time every time you have work done. Most good 'smiths usually have a 1-6 month lead time just to start the work.

The main thing is to get as much reliability and accuracy (but remember, most shoot outs take place in under 7-10 yards), that you can.

There's a heck of a lot of butchers out there and they can quickly ruin your gun beyond belief. You'll end up with an $800.00 doorstop.

I hate to thing what I spent on customizing my .45 Gold Cup and that was done more than 20 years ago by the now deceased "master" of the .45- Austin Behlert. It was expensive then, couldn't fathom what it would cost now. At that time a brand new Gold Cup cost $300,00.

Be careful out there, the bad guys aren't just the one's that will try to mug you. There's many ways to get shafted (pun intended)

Bruce

There are at least two gun smiths in town, and a bunch of guys I met at the range have their own tools and stuff. When the time comes, they'll probably be able to help me.

My basis for anything to do with guns will always be the very first gun I held, which is a Sig 230. At this point, I have no idea what kinds of customizations I might need. I read that some people like their triggers to be a little smoother, but I don't know what is "not smooth." I read about a bunch of other things that people ask the smith to do, but I already like the heft and handling of the Sig. I might need more time and experience before I start to see the improvements I might want.

From all the reviews I've read, though, the Sig comes out of the box with great reliability and accuracy. Right now, for the price I'm paying, I'm thinking it's kind of like buying a new Mac. No futzing around, and works right out of the box.

[just started]

"Stopping power" is a good concept, but you will find it hard to get people to agree on a way to measure it. Double-taps don't have anything to do with penetration since it is virtually impossible to put both bullets in the same hole and that would be the only way to increase it. Their purpose is to transfer more energy to the worthless trash so it hits the ground and stays there.