Questions for the gun enthusiasts

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  • JimD
    Veteran Member
    • Feb 2003
    • 4187
    • Lexington, SC.

    #61
    Fragmentation results in secondary projectiles - effectively more mini-projectiles fractured out of the original projectile. Each will penetrate much less than the original projectile would have. Each will also spread out the damage. If they all reach vital portions of anatomy, then the fragmentation will certainly make it harder for the animal to recover. The fight does not go out of the animal because it cannot recover, however. The fight goes out because either the electrical circuit for the brain to actuate the system is broken (central nervous system hit) or the oxygen does not get to the brain and other vital organs. Stopping the animal is different from doing the most damage - making sure the animal does not recover. Damaging a kidney will kill but not at all quickly. The animal cannot purify waste out of its blood but that takes a long time to kill. Lungs or heart are more important because they get oxygen to the brain.

    The deer I mentioned was shot by a pretty high powered rifle round judging from the size of the damage (maybe 8 inch diameter). The wounds were in the muscle tissue of the shoulder, however. The deer probably died from infection. I doubt it recovered but it certainly didn't stop (I saw it walking with other does feeding and limping while small game hunting, I considered ending its misery but that was illegal so I did not). That is an extreme case but may illustrate the point. A non-expanding large caliber (45) would have done less damage but the damage would have been deeper (assuming reasonable velocity) and if the hit was to the chest, the deer would have died within a few minutes.

    Wounding rather than killing is preferable to me if I ever have to shoot at a human but only if I can predict the person I wound will cease trying to do harm to me or others. If I cannot be sure of that, then it may come down to them or me and mine.

    Penetration through walls is an issue. Drywall does not stop much of anything. Shotguns are sometimes recommended for inside homes to minimize over-penetration. They are also kind of the ultimate fragmentor (pre-fragmented). At short range, the shot column apparently does not separate, however, so there can still be sufficient penetration to do a lot of damage. There is a pistol that will shoot a 410 shell but a 410 is a very puny shotgun. It would also have a lot more kick than a 380.

    The FBI article I mention is specifically critical of the wound cavity argument. I think there is something to the size of the wound cavity and when I test in newsprint I measure it but I think it is a secondary factor. The main thing I want to know is how far it penetrated. With a Nosler partition, I know I have enough penetration to take a quartering shot where the bullet will have to penetrate maybe 18 inches or more to go through on a deer. With a Remington 150 grain, I know I have to wait for a shot straight through from the side.

    Jim

    Comment

    • Black wallnut
      cycling to health
      • Jan 2003
      • 4715
      • Ellensburg, Wa, USA.
      • BT3k 1999

      #62
      Originally posted by Anna
      Mendocino County, actually.

      I just got a double action only revolver on loan, and it's really stiff. I need much more effort to pull the trigger. If a Sig requires 10 lbs, I'd think this revolver is at least 12 or 15.

      I honestly don't see the advantage of a double action revolver over a Glock or even a DA/SA like the Sig. Why is it easier to shoot in the cold? And how is it more reliable?

      I already learned the sliding-thing-to-load-it part (d*mn those technical terms!) for the semi autos, although I did get another small cut on my finger because I forgot to keep it away from the slider as it snapped back. Is the loading part the hardest to learn for semi autos?
      First a story. Some years ago an Idaho LEO was involved in a shooting during the winter. He was a great shooter with years of experience shooting. His duty weapon was a Colt 1911. Because of the extreme cold weather his pistol failed to fire upon him pressing on the trigger. Although the exact details of which part froze up are outside of my memorey the result is not. He's no longer with us. There are many parts in autos that can sieze in cold temps if the incorrect lube is used.

      Double action revolvers have a simpler operating mechanism. There is no safety to get in the way and not be clicked to off when one is scarred. The hammer usually has enough mass and the main spring strong enough that the force tranfered to the firing pin is great enough to make it work every time.

      In revolvers there is great mechanical advantage for turning the cylinder to line up the next shot, they rarely fail. Autos on the other hand can misfeed for a number of reasons. Limp-wrisitng being one of them. Magazines can fall out. Extractors can and do break. Ejectors sometimes break. Excess lube or the wrong kind can cause enough resistane to slow the slide of an auto so that it will not feed to a "return to battery" condition.

      Triggers on double action revolvers can be smoothed and lightened to the point where most will have the strength to shoot them. Autos can of course be smoothed and lightened enough to where they actually will shoot themselves dry with one press of the trigger, but usuallly can be made still safe somewhere 2 and 4 lbs. of pull weight.

      All this said I still prefer to carry a 1911 when I do in fact carry year-round. I also spend or have spent many 1000's of rounds in practise and countless hours in dry firing.
      Donate to my Tour de Cure


      marK in WA and Ryobi Fanatic Association State President ©

      Head servant of the forum

      ©

      Comment

      • Bruce Cohen
        Veteran Member
        • May 2003
        • 2698
        • Nanuet, NY, USA.
        • BT3100

        #63
        Anna,

        More stuff to confuse you even more.

        I much prefer a single action auto (1911) to double action (most European autos) being the first shot (trigger pull) is totally different than the follow-up shots. To me, this change in trigger pull is different enough to throw me off.

        I carry my .45 (1911) "cocked and locked", that is one round already chambered and the pistol cocked, but with the safety on. Much more standardized on target follow-ups, (double tap).

        Getting back to customizing your weapon, I had the "ramp" of my auto polished and tuned to enable it to feed empty brass, entire magazines worth. Regardless of the purchase price or brand, I highly doubt you can get that from an "out of the box" auto.

        In terms of actually using a pistol for self-defense, decide RIGHT NOW if you can live with the fact of taking a person's life, no matter what the situation. I have, more than once and the experience (and nightmares) never leave you.

        Because if you have even the slightest doubt, DON'T even think of buying a pistol for personal defense. Just shoot paper, one heck of a relaxing pastime, almost Zen-like.

        Check out this Amazon link for books by this author: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...yoob&x=14&y=21

        In my opinion, he makes more sense than most of the other "pistol gurus" living or dead, and I have shot with Cooper at Gunsite.

        Again, everyone has a preference and they're not always objective when giving advice, me included. What you shoot, how you shoot and everything involved with shooting a pistol comes from YOUR experience, and a heck of a lot of practice.

        Oh, lastly, I wear a man's size 7 glove (real small hands for a guy, and let's leave out the jokes about hand size) and have no problem shooting a full size 1911. you just got to get rid of the checkered stock grips, they suck. Also, I find the recoil, major importance concerning that second and third? shot. Quicker time to get back on target. A .45 cal to me, is much easier and faster than a hot load 9mm or a 158gr .357 in a revolver.

        If nothing else, do yourself the the justice of checking out Ayoob's books. Give you a real perspective on self defense.

        Bruce
        "Western civilization didn't make all men equal,
        Samuel Colt did"

        Comment

        • milanuk
          Established Member
          • Aug 2003
          • 287
          • Wenatchee, WA, USA.

          #64
          Anna,

          Congrats on getting into the firearms 'culture'. It's generally a pretty neat group overall.

          Most of my experience is with rifles, specifically long range, and I'd like to think I'm pretty fair with 'em, and okay with a shotgun, but handguns... well, I'm one of those who subscribes to the theory that the best use of a handgun is to fight your way to a long gun

          On the one hand, I agree with the above posters about big bullets tend to put things down hard the first time more reliably. The caveat there is you have to be able to handle the gun and the recoil to do so. Being actively involved as a part of the Board of our local gun club, I see a lot of people with both handguns and rifles that are shooting 'too much gun'. Basically, if you don't enjoy shooting it, you won't. At least not enough to learn to shoot it well. It's not directly related to size of the individual, either. I'm 6'5" 300# and somewhat of a wuss when it comes to recoil in general, and specifically when it comes to handguns (something about a shattered elbow joint in my right arm makes shooting anything more than a 9mm/.38 Spl not reall fun), but I've seen women that were 5' even blazing away with full-power .45 hardball like it was nothing.

          If you can shoot what you have now comfortably, I say go for it. Later try to find someone with a larger caliber handgun (and moderate loads) at the range and give one a try - several times - just for the experience and sake of comparison, if nothing else. If you do get a bigger gun, a rimfire conversion makes a lot of sense, both in terms of economical practice and in terms of muscle memory (same set of controls). If not... getting a good .22LR pistol to practice with is still a good idea - it's cheaper to feed by far, and the basics - sight alignment, trigger control, etc. remain fundamentally the same regardless of platform.

          Good luck in your endeavors,

          Monte
          All right, breaks over. Back on your heads!

          Comment

          • Anna
            Senior Member
            • Feb 2006
            • 728
            • CA, USA.
            • BT3100

            #65
            Bruce, thanks for the book recommendation. I just ordered one of Ayoob's books from the public library and will pick it up on Tuesday. As far as getting the right mindset goes, I'm still working on it. I've been thinking of various scenarios and analyzing what the proper reactions should be. I can't think of any other way to mentally prepare myself, unless you know of some exercises I can use.

            I just watched the video of a woman who held a burglar at gunpoint. She found that someone had been staying at her house while she was away (telltale signs as she walked in the front door). So she went back to her car to get her gun, called 911, then walked back inside the house and started looking inside rooms. She found the burglar inside her bedroom closet. She held him down with her gun as she dialed 911 again.

            My first reaction was: Was she crazy? She can go out to her car, she can leave and not have to face a bad situation, but she still went in. The guy could have been armed. The police can easily overpower him, but she didn't wait and found the guy herself. If I didn't go through the CCW training, I would probably be applauding this woman. But after everything they've taught us in class, I think she made a mistake in risking a confrontation with a bad guy.

            In my case, I'm sanguine with the decision that if someone breaks down my door and forces his way into my house, I'm going to shoot. It's the iffy situations, i.e. store robberies, muggings, etc, that I'm still working on. Most of the time those guys don't really want to hurt anybody and just want to get the cash and run. Do I still pull out my gun? Especially if they're brandishing their own gun?

            Lastly, I've been going back and forth over the caliber issue. I went to dinner with a gun enthusiast (an understatement) last night, and as soon as he found out I like shooting, he immediately said, "Get yourself a 45 and be done with it." I burst out laughing because, well, I heard that song before.

            Anyway, back at home, I was reading a female shooter's blog and she had her target paper's image up on the web, with her shots very tightly grouped around the X. My husband saw it, and he said, "You're really better off shooting a guy where the number 8 is." That was above the X, and will hit the sternum. He said you won't miss any of the great blood vessels. I commented that I'll be shooting through bone at that point. He said you'll be shooting through bone where the X is anyway, and the sternum is not that hard.

            So after giving me some more anatomy lessons and reminding me that the spleen is not the same as the liver, I decided I'll still go with a 380. I can handle it well, and at close range and aimed at the right targets on the bad guy's body, I think it'll work.

            And thanks to you guys, I found the cheaper places to get ammo. I'm ordering 1000 rounds of Federal FMJ and maybe 500 rounds (or less, if I can find them at a better price) of Gold Dot hollow point. They don't go bad (I think), so it should be okay to store them. Unless there's something I need to know about storage.

            Comment

            • Bruce Cohen
              Veteran Member
              • May 2003
              • 2698
              • Nanuet, NY, USA.
              • BT3100

              #66
              Anna,

              In an article written by Ayoob, (keeping in mind he used to be "on the job"}, he mentions that one way to avoid having to shoot a mugger is to always carry a pocket full of change and a few $1.00 bills. Throwing this on the floor usually distracts the guy or satisfies him and lets you get the h**l out of the situation. A lot cheaper than lawyers and court, even if you're in the right.

              Every state has a different iinterpretation of when deadly physical force is acceptable for non-law enforcement individuals, I assume you know your state's by heart by now.

              Any other help I can render, just ask.

              Bruce
              "Western civilization didn't make all men equal,
              Samuel Colt did"

              Comment

              • mudder
                Veteran Member
                • Jul 2003
                • 1532
                • I live in a house
                • Delta 36-650

                #67
                Don't know if you disassembled and cleaned the browning yet but this site might help:

                http://olarmyjoel.com/Virtual%20Arms...ing%201922.htm

                Comment

                • ironhat
                  Veteran Member
                  • Aug 2004
                  • 2553
                  • Chambersburg, PA (South-central).
                  • Ridgid 3650 (can I still play here?)

                  #68
                  Please consider the S&W Featherweight in 38spl+P. I bought this for my wife and wish that had one for myself. If I had it to do again I would have bought the model with the shrouded hammer. I let the salesman influence my choice, unfortunately. I have other higher caliber firearms but after trying to carry some of them all day it was obvious that I had an issue with their size and weight. The featherweight is practically unnoticeable.
                  Blessings,
                  Chiz

                  Comment

                  • Anna
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2006
                    • 728
                    • CA, USA.
                    • BT3100

                    #69
                    Originally posted by mudder
                    Don't know if you disassembled and cleaned the browning yet but this site might help:

                    http://olarmyjoel.com/Virtual%20Arms...ing%201922.htm
                    Thanks, Mudder. I bought the cleaning kit and will try to clean my Browning this weekend. There are a few things I'm still fuzzy about with respect to the instructions, so I'm trying to do it as deliberately as I can.

                    Comment

                    • JimD
                      Veteran Member
                      • Feb 2003
                      • 4187
                      • Lexington, SC.

                      #70
                      Ammunition will keep for a very long time, decades, if kept dry and at reasonable temperature. Even under more extreme conditions it will keep but brass cases corrode and it may not feed well. I keep mine in my gun cabinet and have never had an issue. Some was over 10 years old when I used it and functioned just like new.

                      I think hitting what you are aiming at is a lot more important than exactly what you hit it with. The biggest caliber you can reliably handle is what is normally recommended. Getting something bigger that causes you to flinch won't help.

                      Jim

                      Comment

                      • Black wallnut
                        cycling to health
                        • Jan 2003
                        • 4715
                        • Ellensburg, Wa, USA.
                        • BT3k 1999

                        #71
                        Originally posted by JimD
                        Ammunition will keep for a very long time, decades, if kept dry and at reasonable temperature. Even under more extreme conditions it will keep but brass cases corrode and it may not feed well. I keep mine in my gun cabinet and have never had an issue. Some was over 10 years old when I used it and functioned just like new.

                        I think hitting what you are aiming at is a lot more important than exactly what you hit it with. The biggest caliber you can reliably handle is what is normally recommended. Getting something bigger that causes you to flinch won't help.

                        Jim
                        Yep, exactly what Jim said. About a year ago I shot several boxes of WCC '73 .45 acp ball match. I think it was surplussed to my dad from the USAF pistol team he was part of during that era. It was storred for all those years in a metal ammo can, rarely opened. I'll likely get most of the rest someday.
                        Donate to my Tour de Cure


                        marK in WA and Ryobi Fanatic Association State President ©

                        Head servant of the forum

                        ©

                        Comment

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