Forum Rules Review

[tedkitch]

Whatever happened to the old "if you don't like what is on channel five, then switch it" adage?

I've joined forums in the past and they discuss things that I don't like, so either I switch forums or I just have to ignore it.

One thing that I find is that the whole ordeal with discussing religion/politics is that people don't want anyone forcing their ideas and/or philosophies on them, but the same thing happens when we try to sanitize everything so that no one is offended. If you drive by a nut job on the side of the road with his pants down around his knees, do you stop and tell him that he can't do that because you find it offensive or do you drive on and ignore him while trying to remember the number for 911?

When someone wants to give you a flyer in front of Wal-Mart do you tell them that you don't agree with what they are doing or do you just ignore them?

The point that I'm trying to make is that there are so many things that happen to us on a daily basis that we don't like, agree with or enjoy. We choose to ignore them. So if one guys sig line isn't to your fancy then ignore it. If a topic isn't what you like then ignore it. How many people that visit this site daily that can't stand that "The Song Game" is the most popular topic on the site? There can't be more than 20 people still keeping it going (guilty as charged here) and there are something like 900+ members so many people are ignoring it.

I think what we should all just stop and think about how much control needs to be placed on every minute detail about what we can and can't say on this site and just ignore the topics/comments/sig lines that we don't agree with 100% and get on with the meat and potatoes of why we come here.

Woodworking and our love for it. Diatribe complete.

[Stytooner]

Are we talking about the "Got sin?" image? I have to disagree with you here. If you're not a religious person in the first place, then "sin" is rather meaningless (and so is the cross image). The statement is clearly directed to those who are already in a religious context (personally).

Right. And that is the point. It is direct at some people.

Now THAT is the kind of statement that can send a topic swirling out of control. With all due respect, you're changing the context here from "what's acceptable to post" to "why religion and politics are evil". I'm not biting, because that's not appropriate discussion for this forum

And you took my statement out of context. The statement wasn't to mean that they are evil, but that the discussion of them can easily be taken out of context and get out of hand.

To be honest, it is more my ignorance than anything else that have allowed others with religious content sigs to remain unchecked. I wasn't even aware that some of the other things were even religions or pseudo religions. When I am ignorant of such things, it is only through making me or other mods aware that a possible violation exists, that an action can be taken. This was what happened in this case. It is not a reflection on Jerry, but more of an action due to complaints from some members.

To be fair, I think we need to amend the rules to include sig lines. I don't think it is spelled out like that in black and white, but a sig is a post even though you only type it once. That may help remove some of the ambiguity about what is allowed.

[crokett]

This seems to me like a polite, civil, and worthwhile discussion -- and we're talking about politics and religion. I'm sure if it were to become rude and uncivilized it would be locked or removed.

This discussion is. But what about the next one?

So if you're going to write something political or religious, and your intent is to affect someone or argue or convince, then don't write it.

Which is my point exactly regarding Drumpriest and his sig. However, I was PM'd earlier and I stand corrected regarding 'God Of Drums' and religious connotation. With that knowledge I also stand corrected regarding the issue in general - regardless of intent I am not sure it is something we can allow.

So no more paying homage to Rod Kirby's shop.

[Alex Franke]

Right. And that is the point. It is direct at some people.

Yes, we agree on this. It's directed at some people (or probably more appropriately "meaningful to some people"), but it's not "instructing everyone in the world..." To be clear, I would probably also politely ask the user to remove the "Got sin?" image. It's a question, so it does "reach out" and elicit a response. And that can be offensive.

This discussion is. But what about the next one?

If the next discussion goes out of control or turns political or religious, then it should be cut off by the moderators. That's what they're there for. They're moderators, not forestallers.

(BTW, this kind of debate is one of the reasons I love this "coffee pot" so much -- smart people with real opinions and real life experiences who address a issues with intelligence, civility, and respect for others. I hope this kind of discussion never leaves this forum.)

[Alex Franke]

One last thought:

If something doesn't reach out to offend you, then ignore it. If you're repeatedly offended, then complain. If something's getting a lot of complaints, then a moderator should address it. If you're asked by a moderator to tone something down, then do it.

I think the system works as is. (After all it has gotten the community this far!) Tightening the strings will probably just annoy people.

In any case, you'd be hard pressed to forbid every little religious reference. Golly, those doggone religious references are everywhere. Good grief! Besides, doing that would probably offend somebody...

[ragswl4]

IHowever, is it wrong to discuss nuances of politics and religion if those present can do so in a polite, civil manner?

I believe that it is wrong because for no other reason than we all agreed NOT to when we signed on as members. It was one of the guidelines/rules. As one poster pointed out there are many forums where those topics are discussed at length. We be doin woodworking stuff here.

Now if the owner of the forum want to change the rule and say its OK, then its OK.

Its like everyone I see rolling thur a stop sign, pretty soon every one does it so you might as well put up a yield sign or at least remove the stop sign. It is a slippery slope when you SOMETIMES allow the rules to be bent or broken for the sake of "well eveyone's doing it".

I am sorry to see this topic on the forum because as I read through the posts I can detect some friction that did not exist prior to this post. Hope it goes away soon.

[messmaker]

You can see that the discussion of what might constitute breaking the religion,politics rule has people getting bent out of shape. I think Sam could see this comming and put rules in place. We should keep a cool head, use kind words and move on

[LinuxRandal]

This THREAD, should have been a locked posting.

[cwsmith]

Obviously, we all have our perspective on what's tolerable and what's not. While I have been one who recently stepped over the line with a thoughtless piece of humor, I have to honestly admit that I wasn't at all upset by it's lock-out, as I should have known better. I was however embarrassed by the discussion that followed. I certainly didn't live up to my own byline of "think it through, before you do". Just plain dumb on my part, and the discussion didn't help.

But, back to what may be perceived as offensive to someone. Jerry's byline obviously has offended someone's religious (or lack there of) sensitivities (but not mine). But I do understand the rules, and that they were broken... or so we most agree. But what about other sensitivities, like:

That skull and crossbones of Mr. Cohens? I've heard stories of the ruthless pirates who rob and kill people, even today. Oh dear, I hope he's not promoting such criminal activity, don't we have a rule about that?

Or Hellrazor? What is that saying? It certainly sounds religious to me, perhaps Pagen. If there can be a "Hellrazor, then why can't there be "Heaven Praiser"? But I'm sure many would agree the latter as being pretty close to breaking the "religion" rule.

I'll leave the "God of Drums" alone as that's already been hit, but in these days, the use of drum "priest" can certainly conjure up some ill feeling with some religion. Doesn't that come pretty close to breaking the rule, at least in some of our minds?.

And JTimmons' "On the Dark Path" might well be promoting some satanic belief, for all I know! Surely that's got to be a close call.

Cabinetmans avatar seems to be militant with all those lightning bolts and the sword within the arrowhead. While I may not recognize it or understand it, could it be construed by someone as offensive, being either a religious or political statement?

Likewise with flag avatars. States seem popular and certainly decent, but what if part of the flag was a symbol of the Confederacy. Could someone use the Confederate Battle flag or perhaps the Papal Flag or one of a country considered to be less than friendly? Apparently flags don't compromise the "political" rule, or do they?

Of course, this is all very silly on my part. But my point is that we can all have our sensitivities and we can all take offense to something. Without Rules, we have the potential for chaos. But we also need to be a little less sensitive too.

Personally speaking, I would much prefer a personal E-mail regarding any infringement that I might make (should I ever lose my mind again), rather than an embarrassing discussion about it.

But what if I feel that the rule seems to single me out? While discussion is a good thing, what's the point if we don't get a chance to vote for the outcome? If its a plain and simple enforcement of the rules, then lets not embarrass anyone or promote a sense of argument by having an ever expanding thread on the subject. Contact the offender, have personal discussion and if necessary take action. But also try to look around and make sure that the "rule" applies to everyone, even if it doesn't offend you personally.

IMO,
CWS

[JTimmons]

And JTimmons' "On the Dark Path" might well be promoting some satanic belief, for all I know! Surely that's got to be a close call.

Yoda: Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

As it pertains to this forum though it is making the statment that I have gone to a cast iron table saw. You'll find the same on just about everyone's that has done the same.

Hellrazor doesn't suggest anything religious to me, but maybe he cause some trouble, at least that's the context that always remember that term coming from.

I think you're reaching.

Sam has asked us not cross the line, walk on the line, dance on it or even near it. As far as I am concerned don't even look at it.

You know, argue it all you want. There's another forum several of us know that pertains to woodworking where they allow religious/political topics to be discussed in their version of around coffee pot. Everyday without fail there's a heated discussion, it's like watching hockey, it's not if a fight happens, it's when.

Crokett knows exactly where I am talking about. (I choose not to mention it because of the conflict that may/has caused)

Warnings, locking threads and banning members hasn't stopped anything from getting heated. Sam is simply trying to avoid it here, what's the problem? So it has been tried, to let every make their judgement call on those topics and it has obviously failed.

You want to throw a religious quote in your sig line, feel free, just do it in a religious forum.

[drumpriest]

Wow, hot topic, thread growing very quickly. To any here offended by my sig or user name, I apologize, no offense was intended. Rather the implication (which I thought rather obvious) is that it was a metaphor concerning an affinity or connection with something, in this case the playing of percussive instruments.

My assumption that it would be taken as intended (a metaphor) was perhaps incorrect, saddening me further. That someone can take such a statement as a literal interpretation, as an insult to another's faith, or as the profession of an esoteric belief system highlights the problem with having this type of discussion.

The single best part of my user name is the uniqueness of it. I've only ever encountered it from one other source, and he was posting to a music forum pretending to be me. (disturbing in itself) If it truly offends, it can be changed, as can my sig, but I'd like my post count to go with it! :-) Taken me a long time to have 2+k things that I've felt worth saying.

I suppose that I think no single religion owns the term "god" and therefore every use of that term does not directly reference a specific religion, nor does it imply in itself the promotion of any religion.

Thanks for reading this ramble, if in fact you have....

[cabinetman]

There's always going to be somebody that will get offended by something or other. Whether it is that persons impression of a "garbage" post or whatever. If it gives that person a feeling of importance to post his/her individual thoughts of disgust, or go running to a mod about what is their interpretation of garbage, that will continue. That type of reply to a post gets inflamatory. This is what PM's may solve.

Posting in and of itself is a stimuli that may induce response. If a member has a conflicting statement to the post, there is a polite way of making a reply. Or, methods of hijacking, can change the direction very easily. A point of view towards the context of the post is encouraged as long as it doesn't demean anyone. If a member doesn't like the poster, or the post, that member doesn't have to reply to it...life goes on.

All this talk won't change the rules. The philosophies towards sex, politics, and religion, aren't going to change the rules even a smidgen. Maybe Linux Randal was right about it being a locked thread. Maybe it should have been a Sticky with more of a detailed explanation.

So, maybe the destiny of this thread is:
.

[dkerfoot]

If it truly offends, it can be changed, as can my sig

Nope. Don't do it. At least not on my account.

I think my point may have been lost, but I am suggesting more tolerance, not less. There are some noisy Christians out there that would like to force their values on other people. Most of us however, simply feel sad for people who are missing out on something pretty wonderful.

"My co-worker went to a movie last night that she really liked and she came over and told me about it. Can you believe it? I am feeling really oppressed because she is pushing this movie on me!"

Perhaps oddly, given my participation in this thread, I am also of the opinion that avoiding religion and politics is wise. There are many boards out there full of that stuff. I don't like them.

I am still very glad I am not a Mod.

[Ken Massingale]

'There are some noisy Christians out there that would like to force their values on other people.'

Not sure that was a wise comment to post, JMHO. I'm not saying whether I agree or not, just seems like something to add fuel to the fire.

[Stytooner]

From what I remember about previous posts concerning forum rules and enforcement of them, they have always been pretty long and had many different perspectives represented. They are useful discussions and certainly serve to help expand my thoughts.

In just discussing discussions, I have came closer than I ever intended to breaking these rules. It is hard for me not to. I can be of thick skull at times. I will say too that it is not our SOP to single members out publicly. In this case, Jerry did that on his own. I didn't post the OP. Thom did. He probably had more than one sig line in his thoughts when he posted a reminder. This is generally the case when a reminder is posted. Sam does not want heavy handed moding and with this forum, there is no need to. It does pretty much govern itself and as was pointed out by others earlier, it is most likely due to the rules as well as the caliber of its members.

I am not sure that we need to expand the rules or clarify them to include sig lines. I consider them a post anyway and therefore they should be subjected to the same scrutiny as the main body of a post. I will strive to be more vigilant and even handed.

I also ask that we all as members try to be more tolerant of others. (easily done by most members here.) This isn't to say we should not be notified about infringements. I mean that when we see something that rubs us wrong, was that really the spirit of the poster? Are we having a bad day? Were they? Please remember that this is a Family forum. Self moderation does work well here, but could be improved. Please keep this in mind with regard to sig lines as well.

I certainly hope I have said my piece.