Forum Rules Review

[tedkitch]

I saw another example of how silly this can get this morning on the way to work. I drove past a church with a very large cross in front of it. I liken that huge cross to the sig line. I drive past this church everyday and I think that the huge cross is rather "out of place", but I choose to ignore it. I see it all of the time, but I don't make any deal out of it at all.

Liken that to the sig line. You see it. So what? Just drive on by. Obviously the cross in front of the church is an affirmation of what they believe in, same as the sig line. The folks at that particular church aren't stopping me on my way to work to tell me that I have to join them, they just have an affirmation of what they believe. Same as the sig line.

I think that everyone needs to quit thinking that any mention of God is bad in a public forum. Supposedly 50+% of our country believes in God, so expect to see some mention of it sometimes. Just because there are mentions/affirmations of belief/quoting, etc doesn't mean that it can't be included. Restricting even the mention of religion in whatever its form seems wrong to me.

You could apply the same logic to some of the techniques that we use as woodworkers. Oil vs water, sharkguard vs no guard, etc.

I agree with all of those that have stated that no one needs to change anything. There have been some very, very good comments and I really like the fact that Alex said that this type of discussion is good. It is very good for all of us.

BTW, if we only get another 5000 posts we can pass The Song Game!

[Alex Franke]

They are useful discussions and certainly serve to help expand my thoughts. . . .It is hard for me not to. . . .I will say too that it is not our SOP to single members out publicly. . . .Sam does not want heavy handed moding and with this forum, there is no need to. It does pretty much govern itself. . . .I am not sure that we need to expand the rules or clarify them to include sig lines. . . .I also ask that we all as members try to be more tolerant of others. . . .was that really the spirit of the poster? Are we having a bad day?

Well put.

[Thom2]

I've been sitting back and watching this thread intently, it's been a rather interesting conversation that I personally have got a lot of insight from. There have been a lot of good questions raised along with decent civil discussion in reply to them.

I'm now going to address a few of the issues from my perspective.

First and foremost is the comment that this should have been a locked topic.

This topic was left open to reply for a reason, We have NEVER tried to rule this forum with an 'iron fist'. We have many members with wisdom and education under their belt whose replies have brought some things to light that I'm sure we, the mod crew, have overlooked. I have no doubt that each and every one of us on the mod crew will take something away from this thread that will help us in our duties.


The second thing I'm going to address is the rules themselves and our role in dealing with them.

At the very beginning of this forum, Sam laid out the rules, they are not hard to understand OR hard to follow. It's simple, look at my first post that started this thread, then look at your title and sig line. If it even remotely enters your mind that this may be pointing at you, CHANGE IT. It really is that simple.

Regarding the duties of the mods, it all boils down to a simple philosophy. This is Sam's house, Sam has made the rules and given us all a very nice place to play. Sam has asked many of us to help with the upkeep of his house. In the case of the membership, it may be the fund drive to help offset the operating costs or it could just be to respect the rules that he's laid down in advance.

As far as the mods go, Sam approached us each individually over the years and asked if we would help keep an eye on his house, to make sure the rules were being followed and to intervene when necessary. We are all volunteer mods, there is no payment or monetary incentive for us to do this. We do this as a courtesy to Sam and out of our appreciation for the house that Sam has built for us to play in as well as the awesome group of members that we've had to opportunity to share time with over the years.

Third, "The MOD-Job"

We don't have an easy job, most of our decisions don't stem from 'black and white' violations. A LOT of the issues we have to deal with would be seen 10 different ways if shown to 10 different people. Please realize that there is a lot that goes on "behind the scenes", often there is considerable discussion thru PM's or emails amongst ourselves before we make a decision. Short of a totally blatant violation, (spam comes to mind), there is always discussion before judgement is handed down.

Fourth, We can't please everybody

And that's just the way it is, as a group we do try to collaborate and make decisions in the best interest of the 'general forum population'. When you're dealing with a group this size, it gets really hard to see everything ahead of time. If you feel that a decision we made affects you, please PM us and we'll discuss it. If there's anything we can do to rectify the situation, we will if not, we're sorry.

Fifth, It's time

This is probably going to affect less that .01% of you, but it's been brought to our attention that there are some things that we've 'let slide' and it's been in discussion that we need to address these things and get them taken care of. Please don't take offense if you receive a PM from one of us asking you to make a change, the rules are posted and you should be fully aware of what they are. This is Sam's house and we're only trying to do our part in helping him keep it the way he asked.

IN THE END

The rules haven't changed and we all have a very nice place to spend time. Let's show our respect to the man that's given us the opportunity to have this place as well as extending that respect to the fellow forum members that may not share the same view as you.

[Thom2]

Jerry, I normally wouldn't do this in a public post and will probably regret doing so now. Since you felt the need to make a public announcement about your interpretation of this post. I feel I need to publicly point out just how wrong you are.

It seems this thinly disguised hinting post was pointed at my signature line.

My "thinly disguised hinting post" was NOT pointing at you or your sig line. Your sig may have sparked this post, but the post was indeed aimed at a broader audience. If I felt the need to point at you and only at you, you would have had a PM in a heartbeat.

I sorta got that feeling when reading it, but decided that a more direct approach would be required.

THANK YOU, the fact that you were only looking for a confrontation could never be made any more visible than by your own admission of it. You couldn't make it any more obvious that you did indeed know that you overstepped the boundary of the rules, yet refused to comply.

So the mods took a more direct approach and sent me a pm asking me to remove my signature line.

That's our job

but I wonder what would have been the response had I posted Allah Akbar in my sig line?

At the time of the original post, it most likely would have been the same. At this point in time, something tells me it would be a lot different.

[LinuxRandal]

First and foremost is the comment that this should have been a locked topic.

This topic was left open to reply for a reason, We have NEVER tried to rule this forum with an 'iron fist'. We have many members with wisdom and education under their belt whose replies have brought some things to light that I'm sure we, the mod crew, have overlooked. I have no doubt that each and every one of us on the mod crew will take something away from this thread that will help us in our duties.


Fourth, We can't please everybody

And that's just the way it is, as a group we do try to collaborate and make decisions in the best interest of the 'general forum population'. When you're dealing with a group this size, it gets really hard to see everything ahead of time. If you feel that a decision we made affects you, please PM us and we'll discuss it. If there's anything we can do to rectify the situation, we will if not, we're sorry.

First, my apologies. After seeing this same thing happen on two other woodworking forums recently, these discussions got so heated, that members left, some were banned, and everybody ended up with bad feelings in the guts.
I would rather not see that happen here (hence my post and concern).

Second, "we can't please everybody"
First rule everyone should learn in ANY business, or forum. I appreciate people remembering this. Life is so much easier, when you don't even try. You cause yourself, nothing but grief.

Again, my apologies, and thanks to ALL for keeping this civil. (seen too much uncivilized behavior, in the real world, that I wish I could forget).

[linear]

I'll just observe here that in most well-run forums this size, no discussion of mod actions is tolerated. A "shoot on sight" policy for public discussion is typical.

So it is a reflection of the higher civility and courtesy of both posters and mods here that we can do this thread.

[gslyons]

I think the context comments were spot on. We we were talking about how to build a boat, would I be forbidden to suggest that 300x50x30 cubits might be a good size to consider? I should hope not. But if someone were to respond, "That ark story is absurd." then they have crossed the line because they're changing the context of the discussion from a boat-building one to a religious one.

I would argue that by suggesting those specific dimensions, an obvious biblical reference citing a historical unit of measurement no longer in common use, that you were deliberately steering the conversation in a religious direction.

[cwsmith]

Or we might just consider that Alex was trying to be "funny"! I well remember Bill Cosby's stand-up routine on "Noah" and "cubits" would immediately bring back a smile, from me!

What have we become? Are we now a society that is so frought with intolerance, that we have forgotten to laugh, to smile at our neighbors, to find some humor in one another; or have we worked ourselves into such a a frenzy that we are inflamed by even the slightest whim?

I think it will serve no one, if our writings need to be exercised with unwavering concern, should any of our words be tied, in even the most finite way, to religion or politics. Would one, should one, be upset if I posted a question about making Cathedral-style doors? Where does it stop?

Lighten up, chill out, smile a bit more and let's cherish... oops! (sorry!), lets relish in the fact that we have a terrific forum here with a very diverse membership!

Last word from me on the subject

(I take it that "word" is okay... like I know "the word" has religious connotations, but I'm not using "last word" with any religious meaning... well actually, now that I put it that way... well gee.... what I meant was I'll not "speak" of this again. Well I'm not sure if "speak" has reli....

OH JUST NEVER MIND!

CWS

[scorrpio]

On: 'I come here for woodworking discussion, not for politics' comment:
With all due respect, those 'coming here for woodworking' (or working with your hands in general) hardly have a ground for complaint. I counted something like 10 other forums for 'on topic'. If one comes to the office to strictly work and not hear about one's coworkers personal events/views, don't hang around the coffee pot. It is designated for all things unrelated.
On: 'Other forums exist where people discuss politics, you can go there' position. But what if, having posted here for a while, and having come to appreciate the comment of people here, I would really like to broaden the exposure, and see what, say, Pappy or LinuxRandal has to say about recent goings-on in the world. It is not the subject that matters - it is the community discussing it. A recognition that people on these forums have a whole lot more to them than making sawdust.

Now having a controversial statement in your sig means said statement crops up everywhere you post. Not a good thing IMO. I don't personally care - I turn sigs off and don't have one myself. Not because I am offended or something, but because I don't like them taking up space on my screen. But for those who keep sigs on, having a 'naughty' sig is like finishing your every post with that statement: "Oh, I think that 9 degrees is plenty for a dovetail in hardwood - Praise <deity>, Long live <politician>"
But here? I am not saying "let's break them rules our gracious hosts provided" - starting out in an explicitly religious/political context would be a direct disregard, but this being a general discussion place, there are very few facets of our life that are not affected by politics/religion in some way, and it can be real hard to maintain an open discussion without touching them. Even if you apply the Harry Potter'esque 'He Who Must Not Be Named' strategy, most people here know how to take a hint.

So, what I am really saying - if subject matter "begs" for a political view, is it that wrong to express it? - in a respectful manner, of course.

[drumpriest]

Scorrpio, I do come here for the wood working discussions. Around the coffee pot represents a very small percentage of my activity over the years at this forum. Unfortunately this particular discussion is always raised in this section of bt3central, thus I am here.

To be honest, I'd LOVE to see even 1 wood working related post generate this much interest, I certainly have not seen one that has in the past 6 months. Quite a lot of tumble weeds going on in the other sections....

[germdoc]

To be honest, I'd LOVE to see even 1 wood working related post generate this much interest, I certainly have not seen one that has in the past 6 months. Quite a lot of tumble weeds going on in the other sections....

We could always bring up the subject of Craftsman tools or Home Depot policies...

[Black wallnut]

I've been around this forum since the first month that it was opened. Many have come and gone in this time. We have had only a few locked topics in this time, far fewer than some other forums that I belong to.

I think I can consider Sam, Adele, and Thom to be friends and all the other mods are folks that I've conversed with off line either by email or PM. With this in mind I believe that I have a bit of insight on the whys and what not of the rules as Sam has layed them down and the way in which this forum has been moderated.

Like many I have rather strongly held views on both religion and politics. I know Sam and the mods also have strongly held views on these subjects. Just because some things are expressly forbiden for discussion should not lead one to believe that our views differ than those of posters that have been censured. Of all the mods we have look to Hank as the best example. I think it is fair to assume what his views on religion are given his profession and yet he has never posted anything even remotely religious in content. It seems to me that the rules are in place to create an environment for all to come even if they happen to have strongly held views on religion and politics contrary to some of our own. I think it wise to leave our politics and religion at the door. There are plenty of other topics which can be discussed at length around the coffee pot without these two subjects. Many topics become borderline but seem to stay inside the lines, such as our recient topic about the migration habits of geese.

I bumped this topic so that many would see in an effort to generate views, the amount of comments really caught me by surprise. When Thom first posted it I asked him who had caused it and he responded that "no one, just thought it was time. " What little I know of the happenings behind the scenes the Mod squad do not enjoy having to PM rules violators and use far more restraint than some might believe.

The rules are simple IMHO even if sometimes the violation of them is not always black and white. Most posters do an excellent job of self moderation. Ther have been some posts that I have seen that even though I agreed with the poster I personally thought it to be over the line. I've reported some of these posts. I've done so hoping that we keep this forum a great place that families can come to plus other folks that may not share my views. I think playing by the rules mostly generates respect for each other that perhps would not be there if we were to breach the subjects of religion and politics.

[Hellrazor]

Hellrazor doesn't suggest anything religious to me, but maybe he cause some trouble, at least that's the context that always remember that term coming from.

Actually, that is hellraiser. Hellrazor was a character from an old computer game called Wasteland. Interesting play on spelling.

My take after reading the rest of this:

Most of this discussion has nothing to do with following the posted rules. It is more of a how to bend the rules by twisting the interpretation.

[MURPHY-D]

I agree with BlackWalnut. Sam has posted a plain and simple rule for this Forum. It should be followed, no if's and's or but's.

His rule is a good rule, don't abuse it and everyone will enjoy this forum.

[Alex Franke]

I would argue that by suggesting those specific dimensions, an obvious biblical reference citing a historical unit of measurement no longer in common use, that you were deliberately steering the conversation in a religious direction.

Oh, good grief. Then I defer to cwsmith's excellent "cathedral doors" example. Doesn't matter -- it wasn't my point.

I read "steer away from topics on religion or politics" as:

• Don't try to start a religious or political discussion.
• If religious or politics comes up, steer away from it.

I don't read it as "any mention of anything even remotely political or religious is expressly forbidden." (And I know that most everyone else doesn't read it this way either.)

(tongue in cheek: Allow me to apologize in advance to anyone I may offend by accidentally uttering any of these direct biblical references: "the root of the matter," "at my wit's end," "the powers that be," "woe is me," or about a zillion others, including "good grief," which I've been known to use when I'm at my wit's end. Oops -- there I go again!)

I think the mods do a fine job here... I think the system is working great!