Minimum Shop Size

[JimD]

Hey,

We put an offer in on a house yesterday that lacks shop space. It is not it's only problem but it has positive points too. There is a small 2 car garage - about 20 x24 with stairs coming in on one side - so you loose 3 feet on the 20 foot size. Barely room for a couple cars with maybe some storage space at the front - not really usable as a shop. It also has a 12x12 shed in the front yard (spectic in back and pretty tight lot). We don't know if the offer will be accepted but if we buy this thing, I am thinking I need to expand the shed to 20 x 20 feet. That is about as much as I think I can get by with from a visual standpoint -don't want to detract from the house.

So with that background, is 20x20 going to be OK - can I make it work? I'm hoping to keep the gardening stuff out of the shop and only locate woodworking tools in it. I have a BT3100 on a mobile base with extension rails, a floor type drill press, a hollow chisel mortiser (portable on a base), CMS, radial arm, jointer and planner plus lots of hand tools. I would also need to store wood in the shop and have 100 bd feet or so of mixed hardwood to move. My guess is I will be crowded but can make it work.

Jim

[woodturner]

I am thinking I need to expand the shed to 20 x 20 feet.
...
So with that background, is 20x20 going to be OK - can I make it work?

What kind of work will you do? Larger pieces are harder to make in a small space.

In many municipalities, sheds under a certain size (typically 100 square feet) don't require permits. Depending on your municipality and permitting process, that could be a consideration.

A lot of people manage with a two car garage that is also used for cars, by putting all the tools on stands and rolling them out of the way when not in use. You mentioned losing space to stairs, but under the stairs might be a good place to roll equipment away when not in use. If you have cars rather than larger trucks, you will likely find you have a fair amount of space both in front of the cars and beside them in the garage.

Given the options, I think I would try the garage for a while first and see how it works out. If it really doesn't work, you can always expand the shed later and move over to that. When I built a shed/garage, I was surprised by the cost - close to $8000, several years ago. I thought a shed would be a few hundred dollars, but it cost a lot more than that. Something to think about.

[Cochese]

It's doable. You may not like it though.

12x12 (11.5x11.5) is the smallest I would personally go, it being what I have now. Here's what I've shoved in there:

• 21829 w/ extension
• 12" SCMS
• floor DP
• 14" bandsaw
• 12x36 floor lathe
• planer
• floor jointer aircraft carrier
• 1/2 size router table
• a bunch of small tools and a lot of scrap

I constantly wish for more room though. I dream of a 16x20 space, but there's just no money for it. I'm a bit more put off by the shed being in the front yard - both from an aesthetic and a security standpoint.

[JR]

I think I could build just about anything I wanted in a 20'x20' shop. Sure, bigger is better, especially when it comes to trying to finish one project while starting another.

You probably have plenty on your plate with closing on the new house, but you might want to take a look at Grizzly's shop planner tool to start noodling it out.

[dbhost]

I have seen guys, and there are / were members here, that make it work in a 10x12 Tuff Shed. Your 12x12 just adds a few extra feet...

For what it's worth, your garage is monsterous compared to mine, and part of the decision to use the garage as a shop is, the garage is physically too small to hold my vehicles. At least one of them and the planned second one. Our Saturn is mostly plastic and wouldn't matter if it got hailed on. The truck, a 2004 F150 4x4 is lifted with 35" tires just will NOT fit under the garage door opening.

My garage is 18' wide, x 20' deep.

I figure the house was built in 1984, and the garage must have been sized for Toyota Corollas...

Now my shop is fairly fully equipped, however I CAN rebuild / rearrange things, and have several schematics / 3D plans to fit my shop into a 12x16 sheet which was my alternate plan.

In my space I have.

1. BT3100 with wide table kit, built in router table.
2. Floor model drill press.
3. 14 inch band saw
4. 12x36 lathe
5. Bench top jointer
6. Lunchbox planer
7. 12 inch SCMS
8. Bench top mortiser
9. Ridgid Oscillating spindle sander
10. 8 inch grinder sharpening station.
11. full size workbench
12. lumber storage
13. hand tool storage
14. hardware storage
15. 30 gallon air compressor
16. mechanical tool storage
17. large and growning clamp collection.
18. collapsible airbrush / spray booth.

If I were to reduce my shop size, I would eliminate the floor model drill press, probably bust my tail to find a Ryobi 12" and build some flip top tool stands for the drill press / mortiser, one for the jointer / planer, and one for the sander / sharpening station. Then again, might just go tool stacker the whole way, mortiser, drill press, sander, SCMS, jointer, planer, grinder, everything but the table saw, band saw and lathe. Would probably get rid of the wide table kit to save space. It really doesn't help THAT much anyway...

[JimD]

Sounds like you guys think 20x20 obviously works and smaller might too - even the existing shed. It is well constructed with a wood floor, concrete block foundation (complete, not piers) and a hip roof. The inside is not finished but has shelves. The front yard slopes quite a bit towards the house (but has large storm drains) with the shed up the hill a bit from the house. That would make moving tools from the shed to the driveway or garage difficult.

I'm thinking of getting rid of my extension rails and lowering the footprint of the BT3100. I bought a DeWalt track saw and can use it for what would have been a wide rip. It isn't as good under all circumstances but is better in some too.

The previous owners vehices were still in the garage. Right now our "garage queens" are a couple small convertibles but eventually we need to work down to a convertible and a SUV (although if I didn't have to pull the boat one of the convertible could probably handle a utility trailer but four people is a tight squeeze). I have a Suzuki Grand Vitara now which is easily garagable. It and a convertible would fit but neither of us wants to give up their convertible and the two girls have cars too.

Our biggest problem involves more than the garage. We just have too much stuff. With the kids nearly grown we can downsize but it means lots of tough choices of what stays and what goes. The existing garage is bigger than the new one and is packed - with no wood working tools in it. The woodworking tools are in another garage that is about 400 square feet - with very little room to even walk.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. You are reassuring me that a shed I think I can squeeze into the yard can work. I'll have to check about permits and we also need feedback on deed restrictions and/or homeowner rules.

Jim

[greenacres2]

I used my RAS a lot, and had a dysfunctional CMS. A few months ago, I replaced them both with a 12" Sliding CMS. Mounted it on the stand i'd built for the RAS so that footprint didn't change but I gained benchtop. Actually gained a little additional cross-cut capability in the process.

This may be an opportunity to rethink your tool line-up. Good luck.

earl

[capncarl]

Jim, don't forget that if you are not careful "your" shop becomes everyone else in the familys storage room. Extra furniture, furniture for the kids future homes, extra bikes another freezer and on and on. That is the kind of stuff that really fills up a shop. If I ever have to build another wood woking shop I am not sure that it will have a door big enough to tempt me into bringing in a car, and get that temptation out of the way. I like the wood floor for the routing of the dust collector piping underfloor. You can conserve space by good planning and storage but there is nothing like square footage when it comes to swinging a long board around. Also, dont forget about the power requirements of your tools, they add up quickly, and in SC you may want to add air conditioning.
capncarl

[twistsol]

My first shop was a 10 x 12 shed with a single 15 amp outlet and 1 bulb hanging from the ceiling in the center. It was a rental so I couldn't do much to it. I had old craftsman table saw as my only stationary tool and an eight foot bench which I used for bench tools, DP, Scroll saw, bandsaw, midi lathe, small homemade router table etc. I broke down sheet goods outside with a circular saw and a saw board and was able to build an entertainment center in that space. At the time my skills were more of a limitation than shop space.

To work in a small shop, you need to plan your layout and your work more carefully so you set up a tool, perform all your operations with that tool, and then move on to the next one otherwise you spend all your time setting up and taking down tools.

To answer your question, 12x12 is enough room to work but it presents challenges. A dedicated 20x20 space is sufficient and would be a dream come true for many of the people here. My current shop is barely bigger, 26x24 mostly dedicated except a tractor, and I consider it to be positively roomy.

If you have Visio, get the free template for wood shop layout from Harvey Chute. It lets you lay out your shop over and over again without moving anything heavier than a mouse.

http://home.comcast.net/~hchute/woodshop_visio.htm

[BadeMillsap]

Jim, don't forget that if you are not careful "your" shop becomes everyone else in the familys storage room. ... Also, dont forget about the power requirements of your tools, they add up quickly...
capncarl

Really good and important points ... I used a 20 x 20 "dedicated" shop for many many years and built everything from tiny mandolins to a queen sized mission bed head/footboard ... so you can most assuredly "make it work".

Having "mobile tools" is critical in a small space.

I experienced the phenomenon of "other peoples storage" first hand and it definitely puts a cramp on your woodwork capacity.

The point about power requirement is a big one (or was for me) ... running a compressor, a window unit A/C in the summer, a shopvac and pretty much any large power tool often caused tripped breakers (60Amp panel but most of the breakers were 15A other than the a/c) ... so be sure to think about that when deciding what you are going to do.

And ... to echo what another poster said ... "building new or expanding WILL cost more than you expect ... in my case about 30% more .... )

[JimD]

Well we have a contract on the house and the inspections and loan ap have begun. Baring issues in 4-6 weeks it will be ours. So now I have to get serious. Regardless of size this space will be dedicated. Yard tools and car tools will go in the garage. A factor will be the aesthetics. I might back off to 16x16 or 16x20 if it fits better. I can change tools a little too but I can't see 12x12. I used a spare bedroom at first but I had a lot less tools then. I guess I should do some layout. I will also have at least a 20 amp for tools and a 15 for lights. Telling what I can add is on the inspectors list. I may suffer by with a fan until putting a split system into the room over ... And the shop.

[dbhost]

Pull at least 60 amp into the shop whatever your size. More is better.

[JimD]

The house has 200A service but a full panel. But I figure I can get an electrician to install a sub-panel. There are also wiring issues, however. Not surprising on a 48 year old house. Part of the wiring for the house does not have ground wires and there are junctions outside of boxes and in boxes with no cover in the crawl space. We've only had one inspection so far and the wife is getting nervous. I reminded her today this was her dream house last Saturday. Inspections finish tomorrow so we should have the necessary input and make a decision then.

Biggest issues are an apparently incorrectly installed heating/AC unit for the Frog (appears to vent to the garage) and structural issue in the dining room. It appears the dining room was a porch that was converted and it has sagged. There is a beam under it, in the middle, that is off 2 of 3 piers. So it isn't doing much. I need to look at it again. The list is pretty long but the other issues are a few hours to solve. I still want a real roofer to look at the roof, the septic checked, and my HVAC guy to look at that system as well as the rest of the house. Also the well needs inspected. If nothing major shows up in the additional inspections and the wife will go along, we will move forward.

The problem is that anything we can find at this end of the lake will be similar in age and have issues. I believe most ~50 year old houses have some issues. This one actually seems to be mostly OK to me. Termite bond is in place.

So once the "can we get past the issues" decision is made, I need to see what expanding the parking and expanding the foundation for the shed will cost. I believe I can easily frame up the shed although I've never done a total hip roof before and I think that is what is asthetically required. If I have protected space for the tools, we can start to think about moving in but it will need wiring soon. My current shop has a 20A circuit for tools and a 15A for lights. 220V would be nice to have available but I am thinking two circuits are the minimum. If I need to weld, I can go to my son's place. He has a welder.

Jim

[dbhost]

Just FWIW, to put it into perspective, If LOML and I had the physical space for it, not to mention the funds to build it, and HOA / city etc... I would GLADLY trade my garage workshop for a free standing 16x20 any day of the week. I only lose 2' off the width, and with the garage put back into garage service, I could dedicate the workshop to JUST a workshop. No freezer, no mower, no weed whackers or wheelbarrows, or stacks of flower pots, or... oh you get the idea...

Using my brain I could cram it into much less space, especially if I had loft storage for lumber. My minimum would be a gambrel roof 12x16 with a loft. Get at least 60 amps power to it, insulate the snot out of it, throw one of those LG window unit AC / Heat jobs at it, at least 12K BTU, and move in...

[vaking]

Today specifications for a 2-car garage are 24'X24', but they used to be smaller. I have a 2-car garage that is 18'x20'. Not long ago a hurricane dropped a large oak tree on that garage and I thought I would have to tear it down and rebuild. Insurance even gave me green light to do it but - it did not happen. Because of new construction norms if I were to rebuild - I would have had to comply with modern codes, build a 24x24 structure, move it 5' away from the edge of my property (it is 1' away now), etc. I just don't have room for these changes, I would have lost a lot of green grass because of it. As a result I chose to stick to my old garage which exists thanks to its grandfathered status. I had a contractor raise it back, reinforce, put a new concrete floor. All in all - 1/3 of the money that insurance would have had to pay for a new relocated garage.
In a 24x24 garage you would have few feet around your cars to store woodworking equipment, so you can share. In 18x20 there is no room to store anything when cars are in. My workshop is in the basement. - that is where all my equipment lives. We have 1 car now, so in the summer I make use of empty space in the garage to do the smelly work - like applying finishes. My wife has some allergies, so I don't want to stink in the basement. In the winter my in-laws bring their truck to store in my garage (they don't drive in the winter and they hate alternate side parking rules in the city where they live). So in the winter I have to do everything in the basement.