Need Advice: Applying HPL (Formica) - Top and Edge Trimming Including Indented Cutout

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  • duramen
    Forum Newbie
    • Jan 2022
    • 30

    Need Advice: Applying HPL (Formica) - Top and Edge Trimming Including Indented Cutout

    I am working on a simple shelf for the laundry room. It just a board, actually. It will be supported on multiple adjustable risers from underneath. The adjustable risers will be supported by the tops of the washer and dryer. The adjustability will allow me to level the tops of the risers even though the washer and dryer tops are not perfectly level or a perfect match.

    The board will be hooked to the back and right side walls to hold it in place. There will be a rectangular cutout in the back for the hoses and drain.

    The exposed front and left edges will have thick molding to match the bottom of the cabinets. (Remember, the back and right edges are hooked to the wall.)

    The shelf is 12 mm baltic birch plywood. I have a sheet of white HPL for the top, which will be glued with contact cement. We plan to paint the bottom.

    I have more than a few years of woodworking experience, but none with HPL laminate. I already have the plywood, the HPL, the contact cement, and most common woodworking tools - table saw, bandsaw, small and medium routers, miter saw, etc. (... and other typical woodworking tools that are not likely to be needed for this project.)

    I am asking for help with the laminate. Here are my questions:

    1. How would you trim the laminate on the front and left sides, where the laminate butts against the molding? The flat top of the molding will form the front and left edges of the shelf at the same level as the HPL.

    2. Would you cut thin strips of laminate on the table saw and use it to edge the non-molding sides with it? (Don't forget the cutout in the rear, too.)? Which glue would you use?

    3. If you recommend edging with thin strips of laminate, how would you trim them? In which order? (Edge first, then top? Top first, then edge? Bevels?)?

    4. Which router bits would you use? Do I need straight and beveled router bits?

    I have seen the usual flush trim router bits (and have a few of those). I have also seen carbide router bits intended for laminates. They look like a carbide cylinder with a flat slot cut across to form a cutting edge.

    I have searched the internet for help. There is plenty on how to use contact cement for large panel glue-ups. I have done that before, but not with HPL. I am not worried about that. There are videos about using flush trim bits on laminate edges, but zero information on how to trim the edges where the laminate will meet the molding. There is very little information on how to do those laminate edges where they meet the laminate top, and how to work that around the cutout. I am surprised that there isn't more available. Perhaps I am searching with the wrong terms.

    Any answers, hints, or suggestions for improvement will be welcome and appreciated.
    Last edited by duramen; 02-24-2022, 04:48 PM.
  • LCHIEN
    Internet Fact Checker
    • Dec 2002
    • 20914
    • Katy, TX, USA.
    • BT3000 vintage 1999

    #2
    This is beyond my experience. But this is what I think I have seen.

    Cut, then Laminate the top first, then rough trim and the use a flush trim router bit to even the edge of the laminate to the top.

    There are laminate edging stuff, basically slightly oversized tape that you use an iron and its hot melt adhesive to cover the edges of the shelf. Then use a laminate edge trimmer to cut the edging flush with the top.

    Here's some edging materials and tools from Rockler.

    https://www.rockler.com/hot-melt-edg...-50-foot-rolls

    https://www.rockler.com/plastic-preg...-select-option

    https://www.rockler.com/fastcap-quad...anding-trimmer



    MLCS has an selection of bits for precisely trimming and beveling laminate edges:

    https://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shop...=laminate+trim

    https://www.lowes.com/pd/Bosch-Carbide-Router-Bit/1084639


    Last edited by LCHIEN; 02-24-2022, 07:26 PM.
    Loring in Katy, TX USA
    If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
    BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

    Comment

    • Condoman44
      Established Member
      • Nov 2013
      • 178
      • CT near Norwich
      • Ryobi BT3000

      #3
      1. I would flush trim the laminate before applying the molding. This way the molding protects the laminate edge.

      2. If you cut on a table saw be sure to use a plastic cutting blade with no set in the teeth to control chipping. For me if you can't see the edge I would just prime paint it.

      3. Edging first and flush trim. Then top laminate and bevel trim.

      4. Yes, straight and beveled.

      Some caution: if using solvent based glue be sure to ventilate with induction motor fan so there is no sparking that could cause ignition.

      I use dowel sticks to align the top with the shelf board before pressing the contact coated parts together. Allow enough overhang to make trimming to board easier.

      I like laminate. I find it easy to work and it provides a good wipeable surface.

      Comment

      • duramen
        Forum Newbie
        • Jan 2022
        • 30

        #4
        Originally posted by Condoman44
        1. I would flush trim the laminate before applying the molding. This way the molding protects the laminate edge.

        2. If you cut on a table saw be sure to use a plastic cutting blade with no set in the teeth to control chipping. For me if you can't see the edge I would just prime paint it.

        3. Edging first and flush trim. Then top laminate and bevel trim.

        4. Yes, straight and beveled.

        Some caution: if using solvent based glue be sure to ventilate with induction motor fan so there is no sparking that could cause ignition.

        I use dowel sticks to align the top with the shelf board before pressing the contact coated parts together. Allow enough overhang to make trimming to board easier.

        I like laminate. I find it easy to work and it provides a good wipeable surface.
        This is exactly the information (and confirmation) I needed. I am surprised that this knowledge is not easy to find, nor repeated all over the internet. Thank you.

        Comment

        • duramen
          Forum Newbie
          • Jan 2022
          • 30

          #5
          Follow-up question:

          Can I get away with a kitchen rolling pin, or do I need a rubber j-roller?

          My previous contact cement experience was working with mostly un-flexible panels. In essence, they were thin plywood. They barely flexed, just enough to get the middle down first, then it down slowly out to the edges. This HPL is much thinner and more flexible. I know to use dowels or sticks with the HPL and roll/press from the middle out, but will an ordinary kitchen rolling pin work?

          Comment

          • Condoman44
            Established Member
            • Nov 2013
            • 178
            • CT near Norwich
            • Ryobi BT3000

            #6
            I have a rubber roller but never use it on laminate. If you apply the contact cement with good coverage on both the laminate and shelf board rolling will not be necessary. Remember, you have one shot at getting it where you want it. That's why I leave an overhang to trim off.

            Contact cement on laminate usually needs one coat, on plywood or most other lumber surfaces it may be two coats. I use cheap chip brushes since cleaning and reusing is not worth the effort.

            When I am done trimming I use a sanding block with 100 grit to knock the sharp exposed outer edge of the laminate, just a gentle swipe till it feels less sharp. Finally, I clean any glue off the finished work with acetone.

            Comment

            • d_meister
              Established Member
              • Feb 2009
              • 184
              • La Conner, WA.
              • BT3000

              #7
              Rollers are to squeegee the air out. It's most effective if there is a lot of weight over a smaller area. The larger the area , as in a rolling pin versus a 4" rubber faced J-roller, the more weight pushing down is needed to equal the force applied to the smaller surface area. I know that pushing down with all your might feels like a lot, but it's only a portion of your body weight, unless you use roller skates If there's an air pocket in the laminate to substrate interface, it will never adhere in that area, and temperature expansion and contraction will cause growth and large areas of de-lamination over time. I've salvaged shelves and scraps with laminate on them from different yachts to re-purpose. I'm surprised how often I will pull a scrap out of storage and find the laminate completely separated, lying next to the scrap.
              I've done dozens of yacht instrument panels with laminate, and the best results I've ever had was when I vacuum-bagged the laminate with Titebond II as the adhesive. Those panels I made at home (4' long!) and flew from San Diego to Seattle as checked baggage. If those changes in atmospheric pressure and temperature weren't enough to blow the laminate off, nothing else would do it. The laminate remained perfect after many years with the Florida sun beating on it, too.
              Something often not mentioned in popular tutorials, is that the substrate (plywood, in your case), will absorb humidity and "swell" or contract. The laminate won't expand/contract with it, so it will likely bow over time. The old school pro-tip was to laminate the back side with a cheap ugly-colored laminate made for that purpose. I haven't found that material commonly available for years, so I simply laminate both sides with the same material.
              The kind of panels I made were in-your-face, and often had sunlight directly on them, so failure would be noticeable and aggravated by the environment.
              In your case, as far as edge banding goes, I would suggest banding and trimming the plywood first, and then laminating the top. If the edge banding is done last, sliding things on and off the shelf could eventually pull it away as it's snagged by objects, and could also chip. The downside is the dark line of the surface laminate showing.

              Comment

              • duramen
                Forum Newbie
                • Jan 2022
                • 30

                #8
                Still planning, more follow-up questions:

                1. What does "chipping" look like when I cut HPL on the table saw with a less-than-optimum blade? The point of this question is that if chipping turns out to be small, will the chipped edge vanish during the router-trimming steps? (Or is the "chipping" actually large cracks, too large for practical considerations?)

                2. Short of buying a new, negative hook "plastic cutting blade" for this one project, which of my table saw blades would you try first?
                Blades:
                I have a Forrest thin kerf ATB+R (alternating top bevel with a raker tooth), a Forrest full kerf ATB, a full kerf Freud Fusion (high ATB), a 40 tooth Ridge Carbide FTG joinery blade, and various "free" blades that were included with table saws that I use for cutting up junk wood. I also have several old miter saw blades (more teeth, not sure of the hook angles). My hunch is that the Freud Fusion will yield the cleanest cut, or maybe a new, replacement miter saw blade with a negative hook.

                3. How do you keep the router from tipping as you route the edge trim while the router is balanced on 1/2 inch baltic birch plywood?
                Is is simply practice and experience?
                Do you clamp a support block on the opposite side? (How does that work on the first cut when the HPL overlaps both sides of the edge?

                Comment

                • Condoman44
                  Established Member
                  • Nov 2013
                  • 178
                  • CT near Norwich
                  • Ryobi BT3000

                  #9
                  1. I would not take the chance. This is a steel blade and not expensive, last time I got one it was $12 at the hardware store. On my last project there was a chip that was actually a crack. I didn't see it till I was finishing the edge. It was not obvious and I got away with it.
                  2. Sorry, the answer is use the correct blade.
                  3. If the router is large you may want to support it with some parallel stock for the long edge. I have a trim router that was purchased when I did the kitchen counter with a single long piece of Formica.
                  There is no room for error with laminate.

                  I was away for a day so could not reply yesterday.

                  Comment

                  • duramen
                    Forum Newbie
                    • Jan 2022
                    • 30

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Condoman44
                    1. I would not take the chance. This is a steel blade and not expensive, last time I got one it was $12 at the hardware store. On my last project there was a chip that was actually a crack. I didn't see it till I was finishing the edge. It was not obvious and I got away with it.
                    2. Sorry, the answer is use the correct blade.
                    3. If the router is large you may want to support it with some parallel stock for the long edge. I have a trim router that was purchased when I did the kitchen counter with a single long piece of Formica.
                    There is no room for error with laminate.

                    I was away for a day so could not reply yesterday.
                    Thank you for the very helpful responses. I have learned a lot and appreciate it greatly. There is no hurry. I like to "get my ducks in a row" first, then do it when I feel prepared. This project has been in planning/setup for a couple months at least. It isn't holding up other projects.

                    A $12 blade (or anything below $40) is not enough cost to be a concern, especially considering the investment in Baltic Birch plywood (these days, close to $80) and the HPL (around $35). I assumed that it would be a $60 or $80 or $150 blade. I have a SawStop table saw, so the blade must be metal and 10 inches. I might get by with a metal 8 inch blade, but that's "dado size" and I would prefer to avoid it.

                    Can you post a link to an example blade of the type you recommend?

                    Could it be like these?



                    Note: I am not sure that blades like the ones above are acceptable to SawStop and will check with them. We used to call the fine tooth blade type like those, "plywood blades".

                    or more like these?



                    Comment


                    • capncarl
                      capncarl commented
                      Editing a comment
                      A lot of the 10” blades are painted or coated, and I am supposing those are the ones SawStop is talking about not using on its saws. BUT, I can assume you can use a coated blade for special purposes and not expect the brake to work, or you can turn the brake off.

                    • duramen
                      duramen commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Responding to @capncarl's comment to this post:

                      Most painted or coated blades will work with SawStop, including those red blades from Freud. Most blade paint/coatings include fine metal particles for conductivity. A few blades are made from non-conductive materials, or have very hard non-conductive coatings, but they are not common.

                      You can always test a blade. With the SawStop power switch on, but the blade NOT spinning (PADDLE SWITCH MUST BE OFF!), touch a blade tip. If the light on the panel switches from green to red, then the sensor is working and blade conductivity is assured.

                      A more interesting question is whether a SawStop brake will stop one of those fine tooth blades (e.g., 10 inch, 180 or 200 teeth) because it is different than a blade with separate carbide teeth. I "chatted" with SawStop last Tuesday about those fine tooth blades. I asked whether the SawStop brake mechanism will stop that type of blade if it is triggered. The truthful answer is that they do not know. They said to treat it as if the Bypass Mode is on and the brake can't stop the blade, because they don't know. It makes sense to me. I always do my best to follow good table saw safety practices, whether or not I am using a SawStop table saw. I treat SawStop as insurance, not as a license for sloppy practices.
                  • d_meister
                    Established Member
                    • Feb 2009
                    • 184
                    • La Conner, WA.
                    • BT3000

                    #11
                    Of the ones listed, the Diablo is best. It's more like the Freud I use. The aluminum cutting 200 tooth blades are scary. I've done a lot of real plastic work with 1/2" thick acrylic, and I would bet that those wouldn't chip-clear enough and end up seizing the blade with melted plastic. Might be OK for laminate, maybe.
                    Whatever you cut with, a zero-clearance saw insert is essential.

                    Comment

                    • Condoman44
                      Established Member
                      • Nov 2013
                      • 178
                      • CT near Norwich
                      • Ryobi BT3000

                      #12
                      The one I have is: Ace 10 in. Dia. 200 teeth Steel Circular Saw Blade For Fine Tooth Finish, STANLEY/BLACK & DECKER $9.99

                      Comment

                      • duramen
                        Forum Newbie
                        • Jan 2022
                        • 30

                        #13
                        The ACE-branded blade is no longer available. According to ACE, the replacement is a Craftsman 180 tooth blade for $18. Yesterday I bought a 200 tooth blade at the big box store for $13. I am not sure when I will get started, but the only thing left is to plan (and purchase the parts for) the adjustable support risers.

                        ACE Replacement for $18:
                        The Craftsman 10-in. 80T plywood/OSB saw blade is designed for cutting plywood, this blade features a fully hardened and flattened steel plate for fast, true cuts.Find the CM CIRC SAW BLD 10180T at Ace.

                        Blade from big box store for $13:
                        Cutting plywood cleanly requires more teeth on the blade and Avanti delivers with this 200-teeth cutter for table saws and miter saws. Suitable for occasional DIY cuts or heavy-duty construction use, the 10 in. saw blade delivers stellar performance at an affordable price. It's constructed with high-quality steel for dependable, straight cuts on veneer, plastics, oriented-strand board (OSB) and plywood.


                        I don't like shopping at the big box store, but sometimes it works out best.

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