Stain preference

[PartTimeHack]

Just a quick question on stain preferences. I did a small project with my son to get him started. A little bookshelf for his bedroom. We went with pine, just for cost simplicity.

What have you guys had the best results with with different woods like pine, oak, etc...?

Thanks.

[cwsmith]

I've only worked with pine, oak, and walnut; and, except for pine the projects have been reasonably small.

My experience with pine, pretty much has proven to be challenging. Basically, my experience has shown that it doesn't take stain well, if it is sanded too smoothly. Years ago, when my boy was just a little chap, we bought an unfinished "captain's" high chair for him and I tried to stain it dark walnut. It was one of those 'unfinshed' pieces that were popular in most home-centers in those late-70's days. I did the sanding, and then applied an oil-based stain, which you then 'wiped-off' after it partially dried, applying second and third coats to achieve the level of darkness that you wanted. Then you were supposed to apply the varnish after the last coat of stain was applied and dry. Well, most all of the stain simply wiped off, each and every time. And finally after two or three days it seemed I wasn't gaining anything for my labor. I ended up just going with a "poly-stain" which is polyurethane and stain combined.

Decades later, we had a bathroom remodel and my wife wanted the pine molding stained in cherry. The molding was from a big-box store and pre-cut/molded, so really no shop/machining work, except to cut to length on the miter saw and applied. I used poly-stain on that (urethane and stain combined) and it came out great.

My experience tells me that pine is not very porous and thus doesn't except a penetrating oil-stain all that well. It often has a bit of sap/oil which water stains doesn't like at all, resulting in a lot of splotching looking color. A "poly-stain" does work well though. Just don't over brush it. Thin the first two applications and put the final stain coat on wet, but not so much that it will drip. You need to be careful about introducing air bubbles, so don't go shaking the heck out of the can, and don't do a lot of back and forth brush stokes.

Walnut was the best wood that I've ever stained. It seemed to take an oil-stain very well. I've used a brush to apply it, but like using a lint-free rag better (an old tee-shirt). Wiping stain works really great. In the few pieces that I've done (a book case, coffee and end tables), the wipe on oil-stain worked really well and afterwards I applied an oil-based varnish. It came out very nice. Similarly, I had two matching chairs that were made of a combination of walnut and white oak. Again, a light sanding was followed with a wipe-on oil-stain, wipe off the excess, second and third coats of stain (until the right color was achieved, and then the varnish coats (with sanding in between). They came out very nice and matched the tables.

Now Oak... well, that was a different story. Red oak is so porous that you can actually blow air thru a short piece. Applying an oil stain to that was a joke. My kitchen had been paneled with red-oak. When we remodeled we decided to cut it down to wainscote, completely sand it down and refinish to a dark tone to match the cabinets we had picked out. So, I took a couple of pieces to try as examples, before we ordered the cabinets. Well, the dark oil stain just soaked into the pores and seemed to seep out, never-ever drying. A week after application, the pieces were still seeping and it looked ugly with the pores looking very dark and the surface looking completely unstained.

I tried to then use a poly-stain and got similar results, with the stain soaking in and darkening the pores while the surface showing a lighter tone. So, a penetrating stain didn't work well at all because of the pores. A water-based stain was similar, and neither ever seemed to really dry and seeped from the pores.

After a lot of reading, I guess the real way to stain red-oak was to apply a sealer first. Basically that will block and seal the pores with a clear-coat of thinned poly. (I've also read that applying a mix of thinner with sanding will make a "slurry" that will fill the pores, and an application of thinned poly will solidify that mixture, sealing the pores. Once the pores are blocked, you can apply a poly stain (like "Poly-shades" which is a MinWax product). The poly-stain will sits on top of the surface of the sealer, and doesn't penetrate all that well; and because the pores are now blocked, you won't get those darkened spots. (A gel-stain will act similarly and is highly recommended in a few articles that I've read.) The "Polyshades" is translucent, so the grain is still prevalent and one or two coats, or three will give you good results.

However, in the case of our kitchen remodel I decided to just strip and sand the old oak boards down to fresh wood surface and apply three coats of oil-based poly for a natural finish. (And buy the cabinets to match.) The oil-based poly will yellow over time and give a nice toned finish. The first two coats were thinned almost 60/40 (40% thinner) to act as a sealer and provide for a nice smooth finish. The third and fourth coats were 80/20. All were brushed on. The point was that poly needs to be thinned to a point to allow any air bubbles to escape well before the finish starts to set. Brushing will introduce those bubble, even if you're quite careful, and the stuff will start to set pretty quickly in warm temperatures.

I'm sure that the more experienced woodworker will have different experience. I'm by no means as experienced as I should be at this age. I've got a lot to learn when it comes to Finishing methods, but this is what I've learned for the limited applications I've mentioned.

I hope this helps,

CWS

[BadeMillsap]

Hello PTH ....

On PINE ... I recommend using Charles Neil's pre-color/stain conditioner ... Check this link... It really does help prevent blotching on soft woods like pine ... it's an extra step (or 2) and does add to the cost but in my experience has made a world of difference.

For oak and other hardwoods ... my preference is to use dye vs stain and then seal with a topcoat of something (poly for protection typically) ... the transtint dyes give you a lot of color and blending control in my opinion.

I have also had good luck with the gel stains, particularly when wanting a dark finish (like Java).

Good luck!

[JimD]

I rarely stain and when I do I usually use minwax oil based stains. I have also used several quarts of their pickling stain. I get the best results by applying it with a rag or brush to the color I want rather than dumping a lot on and then wiping off like the directions instructions. By wiping or brushing to the color I want I can deal with any blotching. I treat stains more like paint.

[PartTimeHack]

Awesome info. Thanks a bunch.

[Black walnut]

With pine using a pre-stain conditioner, Min-wax makes a good one has proven to be the way to go. This is with the soft western pine which I think is different than SYP. With Oak I have had good results with minwax oil based stains, Watco danish oil, and Ace hardware branded stains. Red oak with its open pores weeps so wiping after staining is rather time consuming and must be done every 15-20 minutes until it stops.

[dbhost]

I typically stick with Minwax oil based products as they are the easiest to get and generally produce good results.

For pine projects always use a sanding sealer / pre stain conditioner. (Minwax sanding sealer).

For hardwoods I prefer oil finishes. I tend to use a lot of Danish Oil, and Tung Oil. Let it soak in good and solid before applying poly I tend to let the work piece sit about a week before hitting it with poly.

[atgcpaul]

I typically stick with Minwax oil based products as they are the easiest to get and generally produce good results.

For pine projects always use a sanding sealer / pre stain conditioner. (Minwax sanding sealer).

For hardwoods I prefer oil finishes. I tend to use a lot of Danish Oil, and Tung Oil. Let it soak in good and solid before applying poly I tend to let the work piece sit about a week before hitting it with poly.

I don't use pine much but have tried the Minwax prestain conditioner and I guess it works. I've also used a 1lb cut of shellac, too, as the prestain conditioner. I haven't used a can of stain in a long time, though. When I did, I like the Minwax gel stains. For me, it's more forgiving.

As my WWing teacher told me, if you want something to look like cherry, use cherry. I learned that the hard way on a kitchen I stained in our first house. Started with maple because it was cheaper than cherry then went to apply stain and had all kinds of trouble. I stripped/sanded it all off and started again. Of course, my time was "free", but I wasted a lot of time not starting with the final color I wanted. Now I mostly stick to clear oil finishes like pure tung oil mixed with varnish/Japan drier/turpentine which I wipe on, sprayed on clear water borne finished from General Finishes, or paint.

[tfischer]

I typically stick with Minwax oil based products as they are the easiest to get and generally produce good results.

Same here.

[Pappy]

Another that prefers not to stain. Exception for 'nice' projects is on Oak. I also use Minwax oil stains. For outdoor projects such as house trim, picnic tables, railings, etc. I use pine or whitewood and stain it with custom mixed oil stains from the box stores.

[Two Much]

I do most of the finishing on our projects. On oak, I like to first use boiled linseed oil, then Minwax oil stain.
On smaller projects I've also just shellac first, then stain. I do prefer the BLO on the bigger oak projects
as it fills in the darker softer wood in the oak, thus allowing the stain to penetrate evenly.

I prefer Quarter sawn and rift sawn white oak, however, we've made a lot of stuff out of flat sawn ( recycled)
red oak that I managed to get a good match on. I love minwax products. My favorite stain on oak is English
chestnut mixed with a little Golden pecan. I apply everything ( the stain) with a rag, even the poly.
I mix the minwax gloss poly with some linseed oil and turpentine...
I take down the gloss shine with very fine sandpaper and or 0000 steel wool.
Poplar in my opinion is hard to stain, I've done it with good results, and once with a bad outcome.
I think pine is hard to stain as well.
Joann

[capncarl]

Not exactly in line with this question, but, I stain my wood after I get everything fit like I want it...... Then glue it up. I take care to not get a lot of stain in the glue joints. This way I do not have to contend with splotches that will not accept stain where glue touched the raw wood.
For my own information I set up several tests to determine if stain in the glue joint affected the connection. (Using Minwax oil base stains). I couldn't tell any difference in a keyed mortise (floating tendon) joint with no stain and the same type joint with stain on the wood. The glued joint held to the point of having to totally destroy the wood to get it apart every time. The test wood was pine and cypress.
capncarl

[poolhound]

I use Minwax and also General Finishes. As many others have said using a pre stain sealer is the way to go.