School me on shower construction

[russde]

Background: Recently purchased a house that was built in the late '60's (Corpus Christi, TX...i.e. gulf coast, hot/humid/termite heaven).

The upstairs shower began leaking through into the laundry room below. After removing the damp drywall from the laundry room ceiling the rotten plywood of the upstairs bathroom was partially visible. I finished removing the tile (3/4 of the bathroom walls were tiled along with the shower) today and found interesting (and depressing) stuff.
1. The frame/studs for the shower surround are severely termite damaged
2. The shower floor had no pan. The tile was laid on aprox 4" of cement/grout which was poured on some type of 'tar paper' which was on top of plywood.
3. The plywood appears to have been both termite damaged and rotten from the leaking shower.

Questions:
Was is 'normal' to not have a shower 'pan'? I've always seen older houses with iron pans that eventually rust out.
If it were you (looking for opinions here), would you: re-tile, put in a fiberglass surround, or ?
We will likely be in this house for 3-5 years as my wife is in the Coast Guard and we'll be moving on down the road eventually.
I can post pics of the damage once I remove all the tile debris from the bathroom...I'm off to remove the linoleum floor in the rest of the bathroom to find out how extensive the rot is and to check the support beams.

Cheers,
Russel

[LCHIEN]

oh you have my sympathy. I'm not any kind of home construction expert but it would seem to me that a pan is a must.

here in Texas the termites are always hungry, esp. for damp wood. I guess you're going to have to treat for termites... Did they get in where they could be seen or did they come up through penetrations in the foundation where you have no hope of spotting them?

[parnelli]

If it were you (looking for opinions here), would you: re-tile, put in a fiberglass surround, or ?
We will likely be in this house for 3-5 years as my wife is in the Coast Guard and we'll be moving on down the road eventually.
I can post pics of the damage once I remove all the tile debris from the bathroom...I'm off to remove the linoleum floor in the rest of the bathroom to find out how extensive the rot is and to check the support beams.

For me, surround vs. tile for me would depend on what the other houses in your neighborhood have. When we bought our house 99% had tile that we looked at. Bought the one that had a surround, but used it during negotiations.

As for pan, there are lots of options of prebuilt ones out there now. Fiberglass, solid surface or ones for tiling like kerdi and the like

[jdon]

Over the years SHMBO and I have lived with many tub/shower variations, including an old claw foot cast iron tub. If I were in your shoes, I'd tear out the tile and install a preformed (acrylic or fiberglass) shower stall.

The only leak issues (thankfully not as drastic as yours) were with tiled installs. My wife's all time favorite was a one piece acrylic stall made by Kohler, IIRC. It was easy to clean, almost impossible to scratch, and retained a shiny finish with no maintenance, other than cleaning. Fiberglass I've seen tends to loss its gloss, and needs waxing to be shiny. Cheaper units with multiple panels have joint lines- probably not an issue leak-wise, but a bit harder to clean. Tile, esp. traditional 4x4 tiles, is a PIA to keep clean- I hate those grout lines!

I've helped with a couple of fiberglass installs, never a tile install, but I've done tile wall repairs. Preformed stalls are a snap to install- nail flanges to frame. One possible drawback of a one piece unit is getting it to through doorways and around corners to the install site.

To do tile right, you definitely need either a dry pack mortar base (hand formed) or a pan for the base, and concrete backer board for the walls. Google "Schluter systems" for what seems to be state of art preformed pans.

In either case, you'll need to get the water and termite damaged framing replaced and repaired.

The only real advantages I see of tile are: 1) in some eyes it has more prestige, and 2) it's more customizable- can be adapted to odd spaces, and wide choices of tile size, color, type, etc.

Knowing you'll be moving in a few years might be a factor in which route to go, e.g. resale value- is a major upgrade (expensive tile) worth the return.

[chopnhack]

That 4" of concrete on tar paper is called a mortar bed or shower pan and is common construction practice in the south. The tar paper acts as a moisture barrier between the concrete and the wood. I know, you can all turn up your noses at this method of doing things, but I have taken some of these out that were over 50 years of age and were in perfect condition.

The fact that you have termite damage and it being a second floor, I would have someone assess the damage to see if it is structurally sound. If it is not that bad and there is no active termite around, sister up the joists and treat them with boric acid to help deter the little buggers. As for what to come back with, that depends on your skill set. If you are good with mortar and concrete work, redo the mudset using more modern material, epdm membrane. Home Depot sells it on a roll, cut off what length you need. If you are not skilled with flat work, go for the fiberglass shower surround, more money, but should be less time to install.

HTH

[JimD]

I differ with the above posts. It might be "typical in the south" but a proper shower installation involves a pan mid-way through the concrete base sloped towards the drain. The drain should have weep holes immediately below the pan elevation to collect the water. The pan could be galvanized steel but it will fail. Copper is far better. Today plastic is used. I would not do this in your case but properly done, it will not result in the issue you have.

Far easier is to use a pre-made base of some sort. Home centers will have a fiberglass or acrylic base which is perfectly servicable. They will also have one piece and 3 piece base/wall combinations. I have a one piece 48 inch shower in two bathrooms of the house we live in and a similar tub/shower combination in another. They are all over 10 years old and work fine. The issue with one piece units is getting them into the room. It needs to occur during construction. You have enough repairs to do of framing it might be possible in your case. If you can get it in, a one piece would be a good solution. The 3 piece units are similar and made for retrofit. Their disadvantage is the seams. They create leakage sites although that is probably not an issue. Cleaning and visual appeal are issues for me but might not be for you. This would be fastest and probably cheapest. With the drain properly screwed together, there should be no leaks. They are not hard to install.

The other reasonable way to go is a pre-made shower base, either the home center variety or you can get solid surface places to make one of fake stone material. Above that goes concrete board and tile. Tiling is more work but not difficult IMHO. I did the surround for a tub this year along with the floor of that room. With everything new, I think I spent less than 2K including fixtures. I used relatively cheap wall tile with a thin row of glass tile near the top to dress it up. That house just sold for a nice profit. I think tile adds value (on both the walls and the floor) and if you do the work yourself it is not very costly (although you have to stay away from the 10-20/square foot stuff). It is more work and will take more time than putting in a one or three piece unit. I did an entire bathroom in 2 or 3 weekends, however. I did not have much in the way of repairs to do, however, but I did put in new shower control, toilet, and sink (and light fixture and all the little stuff including mirror).

Inbetween is a base and walls of solid surface material. That would be pretty fast and is higher end than the one piece or three piece units.

Jim

[capncarl]

I think that I would be concerned with termites on the 2nd floor. They seek water to digest their food. It may be a fair distance from where they are eating, but within the same tunnel system. I've seen termite damage where they were discovered behind the refrigerator at a leaking 1/4 inch ice maker line and farther investigation showed that they had eatten all of the base molding in the entire house where nothing was left but paint. Sneaky rascals.
capncarl

[russde]

Thanks very much for all the replies everyone.

I'm leaning towards solid surface materials for a few reasons. I like the quick & easy of the 3 piece units but think that investing a little more now will pay off when we sell. The one piece won't work as access to the 2nd floor is very limited.

Good news is that the joists appear to be in good shape except for one that has termite damage on the 'top', I'll sister that one, spread the boric acid as suggested by Chopnhack, and there are no active infestations, but first I have to remove the built in vanity cabinet/sink/etc to expose more of the plywood so that I can replace as large a piece as possible in one fell swoop.

I'm calling in a plumber to redo the supply and drain lines as they look horrible (2" copper drain lines, argh) and the supply lines are literally bent into position (even where it's a 90* bend!).

[BigguyZ]

I've done several mud pans, and have had no issues. There are a lot of different techniques, but the key is in any case the waterproofing that's done. If you do a cement pan properly sloped with a good waterproofing, like Schluter's Kerdi system, or the Homelux stuff that Menards sells, or a roll-on solution like Aquadefense, you'll have a completely watertight system that will ensure no leaks. I do a combination of both- Homelux on the pan and for the walls I do Aquadefense that ties into both the walls and the floor. After that, you have a continuous membrane that will never leak.

I hate hate hate the look of shower surrounds. I think they look cheap as heck and they're just ugly. So I'd always reccomend a tiled shower pan, curb, and walls.

[JimD]

BigguyZ,

I am not familar with the specific systems you cite but I will admit I left off the more modern systems involving a pan of some sort (some are foam, I believe) covered by a water proof membrane that is tied to the wall membrane to form a continuous seal to prevent water from going anywhere but down the drain. I have seen them recommended in Fine Homebuilding by experienced professionals so I think they probably work fine.

Appearance of a one piece is OK to me but I prefer tile too. I have three bathrooms to redo in the house we just bought and a powder room to build. Tile is alreay the floor in each and will stay the material for the flooring. Two will get tubs, I think, with tiled surrouds. The third might stay with a shower pan and tile or may get upgraded. The guy in the office that likes the solid surface showers may talk me into one. Getting the pan and floor molded out of the same material sounds like a good idea. He's done it quite a few times now in homes around $1M each. Apparently it didn't hurt their value. I like working with tile but maintanence is higher for a tiled shower. Thinking about it, we might consider solid surface material in the MBR - or possibly a combination of solid surface and tile.

I won't use plastic shower surrounds. There are too many better ways to go. I've never used a 3 piece and don't plan to. But for a house that I was not planning to be in long I would consider it.

[jAngiel]

I'd lean towards a tile shower done the correct way. Go to John Bridge Tile Your World forum, they will answer all you questions. A lot of the professionals that hang out there actually live in that part of the country. They are always willing to help.

[chopnhack]

I differ with the above posts. It might be "typical in the south" but a proper shower installation involves a pan mid-way through the concrete base sloped towards the drain. The drain should have weep holes immediately below the pan elevation to collect the water.

Jim

Not only typical and "proper" but apparently code for a long time, not sure if it is still allowed or not. To understand it better, the sub slope was built into the mortar layer, with the tar paper being the "membrane". The drain still had the tar paper coming over it to properly drain the mud work. I hope that clears it up. It's essentially the same as current pans, just in two layers. Mind you this is for slab on grade properties, on wood framed subfloor it is different as those tend to be on second floors in these woods. ;-)

The Kerdi system mentioned is much better. I don't know how first time friendly it would be.

[JimD]

I guess to function properly I think a pan should not disappear. While galvanized steel was used it does not pass that test so I think it should not be used. I feel the same about tar paper. It might work for awhile but you know eventually it will go away (at the critical interface to the drain where galvanized fails). We all know concrete is porus so while the slope will get rid of most of the water you have to allow for what penetrates due either to porosity or small cracks. That is the purpose of the pan. If you install a pan that will disappear, you are basically guaranteeing a leak at some point. I would not do that.

[BigguyZ]

Here's the old school pan technique. There's your subfloor, then a pre slope layer, on top of which the rubber membrane is installed, then another layer of mud (usually a cement/ sand mixture), and finally tile.

The last two pans I made were using a product called Quick Pitch, Homelux waterproofing membrane (it's a Schluter like product that's more like a stiff fabric than a rubber sheet), and a pre-formed flashing by a company called Noble. The website for Quick Pitch has videos on how to do this method.

But even with the classic pre slope, membrane, final slope method, I've found that quick pitch really works well for DIY. Home Depot sells the product online, and there are various kits that include the Pre Pitch, Quick Pitch, and Kirb Perfect system. So you can get everything you need except the mud (rubber memberane and drain included) in one package. Not a bad way to go. Though again, I prefer using the waterproofing on top of the pan, so no water even gets to the mud that makes up the pan.