What tools would you buy?

[swilkinson]

First, let me start by complementing you on a very nice forum. Having lurked on many a forum, I’ve found the consistently well meaning posts here to be very refreshing.

After years of piddling around I’ve decided it is time to update my workshop. I am by all accounts a novice woodworker. However, given my track record with hobbies, you can count on me becoming an average woodworker some day. I expect to build mostly furniture type items such as cabinets, bookshelves, toy boxes and the like. I prefer quality over quantity but when finished I hope to have all the tools I need to maximize my woodworking averageness. I’d like to collect as many of the “Essential” woodworking tools as possible but in most cases I’m not willing to sacrifice quality to do so.

The only tools I own of consequence are a Craftsman Circular Saw, 18V Cordless Drill, Bosch 1617 router, AP1300 Planer, Rockler router table, and a BT3100 (Got the last one in Atlanta I think).
ALL EXCEPT THE CIRCULAR SAW AND DRILL ARE STILL RETURNABLE FOR A COUPLE MORE WEEKS

My workshop is a 13’ X 15' unfinished part of my basement with the opportunity to spill into other parts with less messy tools like a drill press or to store mobile tools. Noise and Dust will have to be taken into consideration to keep peace in my family.

A much as I don’t like to talk money, I think it is necessary to get the maximum benefit from your knowledge. That said, I was able to barter $2500 from my wife to accomplish said task. The $2500 is over and above the tools I already have.

Specific Questions:

Table Saws:

I like the BT3100 but think I will prefer a cabinet saw. Why?
1. Quieter?
2. Better Dust Collection
3. Bigger work surface.
4. Better fence to make up for my poor technique.

I’m strongly considering the Grizzly G1023SL and G1023SLW and Craftsman OR35504

Is the Craftsman quieter than the Grizzly?
Has anyone used the router table on the Grizzly G1023SLW? Is it any good?
Do you prefer having a separate router table or a saw/router table combo? Why?
Is the lack of a router plate a deal breaker for using the G1023SLW router table with the Bosch 1617?
Even if you don’t use the Grizzly’s router table would you still get the SLW for the extra ripping capacity (if any)?
Does the Craftsman have enough power? (I’ll probably rip some hardwoods at some point)

Dust collection:

Right now I have a 6.5HP Shop Vac I’ve owned for many years. I bought the tubing to run a 2 ½ dust collection system but now I’m not sure it will be adequate to meet my dust collection needs. I’m looking at the Delta 50-760. Do you think that would be a better choice?

General Question:

Keeping in mind my budget and goals what other tools would you add? Specific recommendations (with explanations) are great but generalizations are welcome to.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I don’t mind waiting in order to acquire better tools at lower prices. If every year Craftsman runs a %50 off sale at Christmas please let me know. I’d rather get more for less than to purchase right away.

I’ve done some searching on this forum for an "Essential Tools" list without much success. If there are any threads I missed that I should read please let me know.

Thank you very much in advance for your input!

Scott

[Knottscott]

Hi Scott - I'll try to answer some of you questions. For starters, DC is important to your enjoyment and your health. I've "made do" with a big shop vac for a while but there are many limitations...and if noise is a concern, shop vacs tend to be howlers. The planer will quickly overwelm most shop vacs. A true DC system will perform much better overall and is alot quieter. They are simple devices and there are many good ones...don't assume the stated CFM ratings are accurate. A larger impeller typically means more air flow...a larger impeller also typically has a larger motor too. Also consider the level of filtration....1 micron or less is best. Iv'e got a Grizzly, but the Delta is very good, as is Jet, JDS, Shop Fox, Penn State and many others.

The Grizzly 1023 is a great saw, has tons of power, and is an excellent value for a saw at that level. Never tried the router table, but I'm sure it'd be fine. It's an industrial grade machine and more saw than most hobbyists need, but many of us keep one on our "want" list. Be aware that it'll require a 220v circuit to run that big 3hp motor. It's more substantially built than the Craftsman OR35504 (more commonly known as the 22124 or "zip code" saw), but the 22124 is a great saw in it's own right and is plenty capable for a hobbyist, which is exactly the market it's aimed at. It's as quiet as the 1023, maybe quieter, but is really a moot point....the blade makes far more noise than either saw. The 22124 will run on standard 110v circuits or can be converted to 220v. I switched from a great GI contractor saw to the 22124 and am really pleased with it. Owners and mags love it, but Craftsman bashers hate it even though most haven't tried one. It's definitely a new breed from the stuff of a few years ago. It's been out for 2 years and has earned alot of praise from those who've tried it. It goes on sale in the $850 range often (sometimes less). I'd go with the 1023SL if I had to pay full price. With a good 24T ripping blade I can ripping anything with a surprising feedrate...3" hardmaple, elm, etc. I usually spin a Forrest WWII on it. I've moved the rails to the right and now have 41" rip capacity, and have built the router table into the right side of the saw to save space.

If you've got the space, there are advantages to a separate router table, but I'm quite pleased with my current set up in my small shop. With a 13'x15' shop, you'll need to find ways to maximize space...this is an excellent way.

A jointer is an incredible tool to compliment the planer. I use the jointer, planer, and TS for square and dimension stock at the beginning of every project. A BS and DP are handy too, but you don't need to get everything all at once....buy them as you need them. Save some budget for great quality blades, router bits, measuring devices, clamps, clamps, and some different clamps!

More on the 22124:
http://www.epinions.com/content_184778395268

[Hellrazor]

Scott, my old motto is "Friends don't let friends buy craftsman".

I have had mostly bad experiences with most sears non hand held tools. Yes they are made by some of the larger companies but sometimes I think its a Harbor Freight tool in a tux. I personally would look at the Griz,etc..

[jackellis]

You can stretch your budget Further and still get good quality machines by looking for "pre-owned" (aka used) eqipment. My drill press, 6" jointer, belt sander, palm sanders, cordless drills, many clamps, chisels, roller stands, a small table saw for our second home, dado set, extra miter saw and bandsaw were all pre-owned. If you have a Craigslist for your area, it's an excellent resource.

Someday I'll upgrade at least a few of my tools, and I'll probably by second-hand stuff.

[swilkinson]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the feedback.

Dustmight

The stingy side of me hates to spend money on DC but you've helped me confirm it is the right thing to do. I do like the Grizzly saw but if I could pick up the 24124 at 2/3 the price of the Grizzly that would be quite compelling. There are a lot of things I like about 24124.

Hellrazor

I hear you but you have to admit the 24124 gets rave review for the most part. Plus, it comes with a decent blade, has a true Biesemeyer fence, miter gauge and a folding outfeed table.

Thanks again!

Scott

[NJFrank]

Well my 2 cents sure other will have suggestions. Not in order of importance, and being in a 13x15 area mobile bases.

1 - you seem to want to upgrade the 3100 and it's returnable, I would do it. Add the money to the 2500 and get the Grizzly or other saw. As much as i like by 3100, it's not a 1023. Get a Moblie base to go with everything.

2- Definetly get a dust collector (at least 5 preferably 1 micron), Jet, delta, Penn State and other make good ones

3- Get an Air cleaner your working in an enclosed space, something that filters to 1 micron or better. Jet, Delta JDS all make them 200-250. You can also make your own. Believe me the DC won't get everything, you'll leave the shop and come back later and still find a film of dust, that you will be breathing.

3- Jointer and bandsaw, but you can get them later look for deals. I got My jointer for 110 (Craftsman 6" gloat) due to this sites bargain alerts forum, and bandsaw (Ridgid $ 150 + 25 mobile base) due to Woodnet. bargains are out there if you don't need it now.

4- Don't forget peripherals add up , mobile bases, bandsaw Fence, saw blades etc.

5- Maybe a pocket screw jig set $50-130

6- Small Compressor and Brad Nailer

7- Some type of workbench/station

8- read up on maximizing space in a small workshop, since your spacially challenged like me

9- Mitre saw 10" should do $100.00 and a portable miter saw stand.

10- Can't forget clamps

11- Benchtop Drill Press on mobile cabinet

Good Luck

[Ken Weaver]

I go along with most of what the other guys have said, especially the DC setup for a basement. I'm in the garage and get along ok with a couple of shop vacs, but as soon as I move to dedicated shop, I plan not to scrimp on the DC system.

With your budget, I'd put a jointer close to the top after the DC system. You have the planer so you're halfway there to mill your own stock and save $$$ on the materials.

I'm not so sure I'd get rid of the BT unless you plan on projects that you are sure you can't do with it. Replace the blade with a freud or WWII and I think you'll be happier with it. I haven't run into anything that I can't do with the BT - so far. You've already spent the money and probably got the best bang for your buck.

HTH - just my $.02.

[drumpriest]

I fully agree with these guys, get a DC and an air cleaner. After that consider this... I personally will not replace my BT3100 until I can afford a saw with at least 1 similar feature, a riving knife. Powermatic k2000 ( I think ), sawstop, and Laguna come to mind, but they are probably all over your budget. Also, as to the noise difference, there is very little. The larger cabinet saws are indeed quieter, but with any of these table saws you are going to need hearing protection.

I have been very happy with my BT with the wide table kit. Now, you need a nice jointer, bandsaw, and then I'd consider a drum sander, depending upon the work you are going to be doing.

So...

1. Jointer. 6" Ridgid is nice, well spoken of on this forum.
2. Bandsaw. A 14" is probably the most common, either a C style with expandability, or a euro. I have the Craftsman Pro 14", 8" resaw, and it's been a great tool.
3. Drum Sander - If you are going to ever do veneering, or large panel glue-ups, this is a worthy tool. Performax is my personal price/performance choice.

[Popeye]

We all know what they say about opinions and I have mine.
I've been WW since about 75. Lived with an old direct drive Craftsman and an old Ryobi MS till about 3 years ago. Along with an assortment of hand power tools, etc etc. I built tons of stuff with just that. You can get by with what you have right now with just a few additions.
That said....When I bought the BT I went from an occasional WW to somebody who spends most of his "down time" in the shop. THE BT DID IT.
So here goes: Keep the BT untill you're absolutly sure you're gonna stay in the hobby. Best saw for twice the money. If you upgrade the Griz is the way to go. Mine gets delievered tomorrow.
Unless you know you're gonna start resawing right away hold off on the BS and buy a top of the line jigsaw, IMO there is only one...Bosch, you'll need this even if you do get a BS.
Plate jointer/biscut jointer: PC would be my choice, I have an older Freud.
Random Orbit Sander: Get a good one not a cheap one. I have a Ridgid but Thom's Dewalt is better. Don't go cheap, I made that mistake for you already.
You have a planer, a jointer is the left hand of the planner. Buy a floor model not a bench top.
A good CORDED drill to go along with the cordless.
A cordless impact driver, 1000% better for driving screws than a drill driver.
Miter Saw or Sliding MS. I do 99% of my cross cuts with either the MS or RAS.
Clamps, there are two Harbor Freights in the Atlanta area and I'm sold on HF clamps. I've always bought the bar clamps in mulitples of 6 or 8 on sale.
Look for used power tools, The Griz and BT are the only big tools in my shop that I've bought new. I'd have bought a used Griz if I could have found one within a reasonable pickup distance.
I've forgotten a ton of things but that's the basic big tools I think. Have fun BE SAFE ask a lot of questions. Pat

[DonHo]

My opinion FWIW

My shop is 12'X 14' so you have a little more room but not much so from my experience in order of importance:

#1 - put ever tool you can on a mobile base with storage in the bases when possible.
#2 - good dust collection
#3 - air cleaner
#4 - some kind of work bench. Sturdy with as much storage as possible and mobile if possible.
#5 - I'd keep the BT3 and up grade to a WWII blade
#6- drill press I have a 12" Bench top on a mobile cabinet and it works well for me.
#7- band saw - I have a 12" Jet and it works well for me but a 14" might have been better(make it mobile).
#8 - jointer - again I have a bench top due to "space" considerations and it works OK for small projects but if you plan on larger projects I'd go with a floor model but don't forget, make it mobile.
#9 - small compresor and brad nailer
#10 - power sanders, ROS + at least a belt/disk combo
#11 - a good corded drill
#12 - Kreg pocket hole jig( I'd get the Master system)
#13- a saw board - actually this might be much higher on the list but since you can make it yourself for just a few $ I placed it lower on the "budget list". If you're going to use sheet goods a couple of saw boards are a "must have".

Just my opinion,
DonHo

[LCHIEN]

a quick reply - the BT is a light duty saw, not a heavy duty saw. But its no slacker in the ability to do accurate work, unlke some othere cheap saws including the Ryobi BTS10 and 15
I think you can do your cabiet work, no sweat withthe BT3100.
In a 13x15 basement area, i think the BT3100 will be an asset due to the limioted work area, its compact and can be made moreso by removing parts, and can be easily mobile with a mobile base (Ryobi castor accesory NOT recommended!) due to its lightness and size.

Besides, who want to carry a cabinet saw down the basement stairs?

Being enclosed and attached to the house I presume, you will need some kind of dust collection lest the house contents be covered in a fine layer of sawdust.

[Wood_workur]

your "must have list" is:

dust collector
air cleaner
clamps (h/f bar clamps (the aluminum ones) and a few bessy's)
workbench (build it)
jointer
drill press
bandsaw
bradnailer
corded drill (something with good power, maybe a hammer drill)
pocket hole jig
dedicated mortiser- if you see your self using mortise + tennon joints a lot
dedicated router for the table- maybe that hitachi (don't know the model #)
lumber storage stuff
assembly table

I listed those in order of importance, at least in my opion. YOU have to decide what is right for YOU, as we are telling YOU what WE would want, and YOU are different. (In a good way) Maybe you will do a lot of mission furniture, and need a dedicated mortiser, or maybe you will do contemporary, and need a huge table saw.

[swilkinson]

You guys are great!

This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

Thanks so much!

[vaking]

Popeye gave an excellent advice.
Keep BT3100 - it is the best saw for twice the money. It will take you years to outgrow it. Do not upgrade until you know exactly what you don't like about BT and which saw you want. Noise from the saw is not important - blade and DC will overpower anyway. If table is too small - build a mobile base with extended rails.
Get DC and few hand-held tools: jig saw, ROS, corded drill.
Keep you budget for the time being. Buy tools only when there is a project that requires a tool you do not yet have or if there is a deal you absolutely cannot resist, as in the deal price for a tool is a fraction of what you would have paid normally. Remember that router bits cost more than routers when the dust settles - don't rush top spend your budget yet.
Please remember - woodworking and tool collecting are 2 different hobbies. Which one is yours?

[swilkinson]

Vaking

Your points are well taken. Certainly the strength of the BT following does make one pause and think about returning such a highly regarded piece of equipment. I will have to consider it further. However, many people who own a BT do move to a higher priced saw eventually. Why is that?

As you know, equipment can make all the difference in how much you enjoy something. Riding a moped around the Indy 500 track is not the same as driving an Indy car around the track. I've found this mostly to be the same no matter what the venture. Does it apply to woodworking? I don't know, but I'm guessing it does.

<I'm not insinuating the BT is a moped so please don't flame me. Just exaggerating to make a point>

I’m sure you also understand how frustrating and time consuming it can be to try to do something without the right tool.

Still, I’m not trying to hide the fact that I like collecting tools/toys just as much as the next guy.

My plan is to acquire the bulk of the tools at great bargain prices over the next several months. You guys are helping immensely in prioritizing my list.

Thanks for the feedback!

Scott