What tools would you buy?

[swilkinson]

Jeffrey,

In a 15' x 13' shop with a built in workbench across one end (12.5' x 13') it is hard to put 2 7' machines. So I just don't think the 8" jointer will fit. Also, if I've only got a 6" resaw ability with my BS would an 8" jointer be of much use?

Please explain further why you are so adamant about a 8" jointer.

The Delta saw in you link does look nice but I've got a few issues.

1. I need a mobile base. (add $100 to Delta)
2. With the Delta base I can't put my Planer under the table because there is a bar in the way.
3. Dust control is not as good (wife is very sensitive to dust)
4. No riving knife
5. No blade lock
6. I think the switch position and style is not nearly as safe as the PM
7. Fit and finish not as nice.
8. Smaller table top (27" vs 30" deep)
9. Table inserts not beveled

Are these valid reasons to pay $900 more. I don't know. That is what I'm trying to decide.


I've got a question about fences:

The PM fence face is attached with T-Nuts making it easy to swap fence for different jobs or replace. Biesemeyer fence face seems glued on or something.

Is the swappable face of the PM fence an attractive feature?


Dustmight

Grizzly did change their fence to rack and pinion.

Thanks again!

Scott

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Jeffrey,

In a 15' x 13' shop with a built in workbench across one end (12.5' x 13') it is hard to put 2 7' machines. So I just don't think the 8" jointer will fit. Also, if I've only got a 6" resaw ability with my BS would an 8" jointer be of much use?

Please explain further why you are so adamant about a 8" jointer.

The Delta saw in you link does look nice but I've got a few issues.

1. I need a mobile base. (add $100 to Delta)
2. With the Delta base I can't put my Planer under the table because there is a bar in the way.
3. Dust control is not as good (wife is very sensitive to dust)
4. No riving knife
5. No blade lock
6. I think the switch position and style is not nearly as safe as the PM
7. Fit and finish not as nice.
8. Smaller table top (27" vs 30" deep)
9. Table inserts not beveled

Are these valid reasons to pay $900 more. I don't know. That is what I'm trying to decide.


I've got a question about fences:

The PM fence face is attached with T-Nuts making it easy to swap fence for different jobs or replace. Biesemeyer fence face seems glued on or something.

Is the swappable face of the PM fence an attractive feature?


Dustmight

Grizzly did change their fence to rack and pinion.

Thanks again!

Scott

The function of a jointer is to provide square wood from rough lumber. I really has nothing to do with re-sawing. If you had a square board and re-saw in half, you could use your thickness planner to surface the one side that was cut to get square again. Most people just don't do a lot of re-sawing because it is usually much easier and cheaper to get the proper size wood to begin with. Most wood you will work with will be 4/4 that you joint and plane down to 3/4.
You want to be able to use rough lumber if you expect to get serious about the hobby. Buying wood at HD and Lowes is first very limiting in choice and second incredibly expensive. So when you buy your rough lumber what sizes are you going to buy? The steps in squaring wood involve jointing a flat surface on the face of the board. This means with a 6" jointer you will only be able to face surface a 6" board. You can remove the safety blade guard, build a support system to support the wood and do up to 12" in two runs. The wood must be kept level during the second cut to acheive a flat board. The 8" will handle boards up to 8" which is an incredibly common size board. No need to remove safety guard or build a support bed as you would with the 6" (unless of course you go over 8" but then you can likely face joint a 12" board without the support bed since you already have 4" of planned board on the cast iron bed). You will then need to joint the edge of the board. The 8" jointer is much, much longer and is going to allow you to more easily handle length. The 8"s usually have more powerful motors as well. Additionally, the mentioned Shop Fox/Grizzly has parallelogram beds which are much easier to adjust.
Additionally, if you choose on of these monster tables saws, he is going to feel lonely and out of place with a 6" jointer.
There is no way I am trying to talk you out of the PM 2000. You got the bread and you want it, get it. That single tool pretty much blows your budget and if you later find out that you just don't do much woodworking and are going to get out of it you are going to take a heck of a hit on depreciation. I agree with you on points 1, 4, 8. I don't know about the other arguments or what real value they have. Sacraficial fences attach in a different way with the Biesymer.
I do understand you have a small work space. But if that is the argument against the 8" jointer, then wouldn't it apply to the monster table saw as well? LOL!

[swilkinson]

Jeffery,

There is nothing worse than a lonely saw!

1 big machine will fit just fine. 2 big machines is a lot harder.

Sounds like you would do BIG jointer Smaller TS.

Thanks!

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Jeffery,

There is nothing worse than a lonely saw!

1 big machine will fit just fine. 2 big machines is a lot harder.

Sounds like you would do BIG jointer Smaller TS.

Thanks!

I don't know. I really don't. I could just as possiably go the other way. Just the PM 2000 (and like) are sooo much machine and soooo much money. You have such a small shop it seems like it would over take the shop. Of course the 8" jointer is a monstrocity as well.
Honestly, if I were you at this point I would keep the BT3 and get a 6" jointer. If you stick with woodworking and get a bigger shop then upgrade to larger saw (if needed) and jointer. Both the BT3 and the jointer will have resell values of over half their cost new if you take care of them.
Also, you don't have to get them all at once. It maybe better to acquire tools slowly getting to know the capabilities of each machine as well as determining what you really need. Heck, you may get into turning on the lathe and not need any of this stuff!

[BigguyZ]

Not to hijack the thread, but I'm currently in the same boat- trying to build up my workshop. I figured I'd add to this thread rather than make another- let mw know if I need to go elsewhere.

I don't have the same budget, so I'm mostly going used.

Here's what I have:
-Older Craftsman 3HP cast iron table saw (the body shows 3HP on the front, the motor says 1 1/2 HP- so I'm not sure what's going on there).
-Older Craftsman Radial Arm Saw
-PC 7539 3 1/4 HP router I bought used
-crap jigsaw
-Ryobi 18v Drill
-Makita Biscuit joiner
-Skil circular saw
-Makita saber saw (for home improvement)
-Ryobi variable speed RO sander
-Ryobi belt sander
-Black and Decker 1/4 sheet sander
-a ton of HF clamps, including two 36" alum bar clamps
-an old 6" Joiner- whatever brand Ward's had. The motor works fine, and the current fence is a shopmade wood one. The fence needs to be replaced since it's not square to the table. I think the depth adjustment needs to be calibrated too. The top is a bit pitted out from rust, but not too bad. I figure for $35 it'll get me by, and I'm not near the skill level to use rough cut lumber.

Here's what I want to get:
-I have a deal to pick up this Friday a Grizzley 14" 1 HP BS with a riser block for $200. I don't know if it has a fence, but I was thinking of getting the BS table at rockler for $80.
-Use the PC 7539 in a table. For this I'd probably get the Plunge lift at Woodpecker for $170. Then build a table.
-Get a Beisemeyer fence kit for my Craftsman TS and build an outfeed table for that as well.
-Rebuild my workbench, and incorporate the RAS into that. (still leaving about 5' to the right for work).
-Get a smaller router set for hand routing (the 7539 is just too darn heavy). I was thinking the Hitachi set for $139 at Rockler.
-Get a Rigid corded drill. My brother has one and it's comfortable, rock solid, and operates smoothly.
-Get a Wolfcraft drill angle guide for the drill. This would suppliment the DP, and can be used in tighter areas and horizontally as well.
-Get a stationary 6x36"/ 6" sander from Grizzly
-For DC, I was thinking of making a copy of the clear cyclone mini I saw. I've already downloaded a bunch of pics and made measurements. I figure I can build a non-clear version for less than $50- rather than the $180 they sell it for.

I think that's about all I have planned for now... What do you think?

[Jeffrey Schronce]

-I have a deal to pick up this Friday a Grizzley 14" 1 HP BS with a riser block for $200. I don't know if it has a fence, but I was thinking of getting the BS table at rockler for $80.
KILLER DEAL! JUMP ALL OVER THAT! SHOULD HAVE A RESAW FENCE WITH IT IF THEY HAVE THE RISER BLOCK INSTALLED. BUT MAYBE THEY ARE KEEPING IT.

-Use the PC 7539 in a table. For this I'd probably get the Plunge lift at Woodpecker for $170. Then build a table.
EXCELLENT.

-Get a Beisemeyer fence kit for my Craftsman TS and build an outfeed table for that as well.
GREAT. WATCH AMAZON, THEY HAVE BEEN HAVING SOME KILLER DEALS ON THE BEISEMEYER. ALSO CHECK OUT THE BIESEMYER WEB SITE WHERE THEY HAVE CLOSE OUT, SCRATCH AND DENTS, ETC FOR GREAT PRICES.

-Rebuild my workbench, and incorporate the RAS into that. (still leaving about 5' to the right for work).
I HAVE NEVER BEEN A BIG FAN OF RAS. WHY HAVE PRACTICALLY ALL OF THEM BEEN RECALLED AT ONE POINT OR ANOTHER? MAKE SURE YOURS HAS ANY NECESSARY UPGRADES OR RECALLS.

-Get a smaller router set for hand routing (the 7539 is just too darn heavy). I was thinking the Hitachi set for $139 at Rockler.
LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE IT. I LIKE THE BOSCH 1617 LINE MYSELF.

-Get a Rigid corded drill. My brother has one and it's comfortable, rock solid, and operates smoothly.
EXCELLENT. NEED HIGH SPEED FOR DRILLING POCKET HOLES AND SUCH.

-Get a Wolfcraft drill angle guide for the drill. This would suppliment the DP, and can be used in tighter areas and horizontally as well.
NO EXPERIENCE HERE.

-Get a stationary 6x36"/ 6" sander from Grizzly
SOLID.

-For DC, I was thinking of making a copy of the clear cyclone mini I saw. I've already downloaded a bunch of pics and made measurements. I figure I can build a non-clear version for less than $50- rather than the $180 they sell it for.
I LIKE SOME OF THE READY MADE PSI UNITS BETTER THAN THE DO IT YOURSELF STUFF. BUT HEY, THATS ME.

I think that's about all I have planned for now... What do you think?

INSERTED REPLIES IN CAPS ABOVE.

[BigguyZ]

Thanks for the feedback! I got the RAS from my grandfather for free. My dad has one in his workshop at home. Never had any incidents with it. I don't know if the recall issue is a saftey thing or not... But I can say it's definitely accurate for cross cuts. My brother recently bought a Delta dual bevel MS from Menards for $300. 12" model with an included 60t blade that leaves super smooth cuts. He used it for a crown molding project and may sell it to me for $150 or so. Either way, I can keep it in my workshop when he's not using it. But for now I've had good experiences with the RAS.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Thanks for the feedback! I got the RAS from my grandfather for free. My dad has one in his workshop at home. Never had any incidents with it. I don't know if the recall issue is a saftey thing or not... But I can say it's definitely accurate for cross cuts. My brother recently bought a Delta dual bevel MS from Menards for $300. 12" model with an included 60t blade that leaves super smooth cuts. He used it for a crown molding project and may sell it to me for $150 or so. Either way, I can keep it in my workshop when he's not using it. But for now I've had good experiences with the RAS.

Is it a Sears or Ryobi? Both of those have had major recalls. Let me know your model and I can get you the info.

[BigguyZ]

Is it a Sears or Ryobi? Both of those have had major recalls. Let me know your model and I can get you the info.

Sears. I'll have to check once I get home this eveing about 4:30 CST.

[LinuxRandal]

http://www.radialarmsawrecall.com/faq.htm

It was all about safety. I don't know when the lawsuit was filed, but I would suspect around 85 when Dewalt got out of them. They were forced to add bars to gaurd the blade as people seemed to forget NOT to put their hands in it's way.

[BigguyZ]

http://www.radialarmsawrecall.com/faq.htm

It was all about safety. I don't know when the lawsuit was filed, but I would suspect around 85 when Dewalt got out of them. They were forced to add bars to gaurd the blade as people seemed to forget NOT to put their hands in it's way.

Thanks for the info. It looks like the page you linked allows you to get a free blade guard if your saw qualifies. That's fine with me. Either way, it seems to me that if you follow proper safety practices when using ALL power tools, things like cutting off your hand are not going to happen. I see that HD still sells Delta RAS's and Sears sells their own model as well.

Is there a stigma against today's models too? Or only the older ones that didn't have the guard?



Another question- going back to my original post, do you think the old Craftsman TS should be OK? I don't know why there's a discrepency in the HP rating on the saw unit and the motor istself... But it's in good condition. The arbor is solid and has no play what so ever. The table top is in good condition, although the mister slots aren't t-slots (how big of a deal is this). Could you swap out the motor for a more heavy duty one? Or if the 1 1/2 HP is correct should that be fine until I need a cabinet saw (not that I think I have room for one)?

[RayintheUK]

I expect to build mostly furniture type items such as cabinets, bookshelves, toy boxes and the like. I prefer quality over quantity but when finished I hope to have all the tools I need to maximize my woodworking averageness. I’d like to collect as many of the “Essential” woodworking tools as possible but in most cases I’m not willing to sacrifice quality to do so.

The only tools I own of consequence are a Craftsman Circular Saw, 18V Cordless Drill, Bosch 1617 router, AP1300 Planer, Rockler router table, and a BT3100

My workshop is a 13’ X 15' unfinished part of my basement with the opportunity to spill into other parts with less messy tools like a drill press or to store mobile tools. Noise and Dust will have to be taken into consideration to keep peace in my family.

In order to build the projects you mention, you have already got sufficient tools.

A much as I don’t like to talk money, I think it is necessary to get the maximum benefit from your knowledge.

I haven't the faintest idea what that means, but if it means that "better tools make you a better woodworker," then you're wrong. Better tools may make the job easier, but they don't make you any better.

Table Saws:

I like the BT3100 but think I will prefer a cabinet saw. Why?
1. Quieter?
2. Better Dust Collection
3. Bigger work surface.
4. Better fence to make up for my poor technique.

1. Quieter is only an issue if the saw will be on for long periods. For the sort of projects you specify, it won't.
2. The dust collection on a BT with a crown guard extractor Teed off the main exhause is as good as it gets.
3. A bigger permanent work surface will do you no good in a shop that size. You need collapsable or folding surfaces, otherwise the space taken up will severely inhibit your assembly and general mobility in the shop.
4. Better fences do NOT make up for poor technique. Good work practices (riving knife on all the time for through cuts, etc.) enable better technique and practice with better technique improves performance.
5. I suspect you left one out - a big saw is "cooler."

Right now I have a 6.5HP Shop Vac I’ve owned for many years. I bought the tubing to run a 2 ½ dust collection system but now I’m not sure it will be adequate to meet my dust collection needs. I’m looking at the Delta 50-760. Do you think that would be a better choice?

Once again, you've got what you need for what you intend to do, but better dust collection actually has advantages, so persue that.

Keeping in mind my budget and goals what other tools would you add?

At this stage - none. Tools only need buying when there's a specific need to have them (unless you're simply a tool collector and just love having them without making the most of them).

After you've built a project or two, you'll know what would make the job easier or faster - if time is anywhere in the equation. You've got a router and some bits, but a really good dovetail jig would actually help you to make your projects look better, if (and ONLY if) drawers are going to feature.

I've seen loads of expensive tools bought by others in my time, mostly on the basis that the tools will make the purchaser better at their hobby. I have acquired quite a few bargains that way too, once the user realises that it's experience, learning and skill that makes one better at one's hobby.

I’ve done some searching on this forum for an "Essential Tools" list without much success.

That's because it doesn't exist. Everyone has different needs and the majority acquire as they require. Sure, it's nice to have a wish list, but the way tools are advancing, new models coming out all the time, to try and equip a shop based on a perceived need is false economy. Find out what you need, then get the best tool you can run to in that field.

Ray.