Sigh ... whatever happened to the realization not EVERYONE should go to college?

[TB Roye]

In California it about passing tests so the teacher and school look good and get more money. Trade School is not going to cut it only College. All the Educators and looking at is getting the kids into science and engineering type schools, the heck with building a house or fixing a car or for that matter balancing a checkbook. It seems my Granddaughter was constantly take these standardized test to measure how good the school and school district was doing so they could qualify for more money.

Tom

[woodturner]

Honestly, it seems that college has become a business. And the business they are in is making money. There are few other businesses out there that can year over year increase their prices ~15% and still see demand increase despite having no shortage of supply. There is plenty of it from what I have seen with more and more schools opening new "branches" So why does the cost keep shooting up?

It would be great if we could increase our costs 15% a year, but most universities can't do that.

There are a number of reasons costs are increasing:
1. Decrease in state funding - when I was an undergrad many years ago, at a major state university, I paid around $600 in tuition per semester. This was a state land grant university, so the state funding was around $1800 a semester. Today, it would cost me about $5000 a semester to attend the same university - and the state funding is around $2500. So while the total tuition cost increase is in line with inflation, the student is charged a higher percentage of the cost.

2. Increasing salaries in business have forced universities to raise faculty salaries to be able to hire and retain faculty, particularly in technical and scientific fields. My undergrad and two of my grad degrees are in EE, and most EEs with 10 years or more experience make more than 6 figures in the corporate world, according to industry salary surveys. Why would I take a 50% salary cut to become a college professor? In my case, I made that choice because I have "enough", am passionate about teaching, and felt called to help develop future generations of engineers. Many people are more financially driven, though, and won't make that choice. As a result, universities have had to increase salaries, which have to be paid with higher tuition dollars, and it is still very difficult to attract and retain capable faculty at many universities, even prominent top tier universities.

3. It is increasingly difficult to attract quality grad students. In all but a few liberal arts fields, graduate students are either funded by the university or by their employers. Some masters students go to school part time under their employer's tuition reimbursement plan, but many masters students and essentially all PhD students are funded by the university. For example, my Masters was funded by my employer at the time, and when I went back for a JD and PhD, I went full time and was funded by the university. It's sort of like an internship - the grad student serves as a teaching assistant, to help them develop teaching skills, and later as a research assistant, and receives tuition remission and a small stipend for this work.

Why do grad students matter? Simply because tuition cannot be raised to a point that it would fund the true cost of education, and major universities are dependent on research funding to be able to teach. A professor cannot do enough research on their own to draw in enough research money to make up the short fall. As a result, every professor has to have in the range of five grad students who are capable of doing the work needed to draw in the research grants that allow the university to stay in business. If we can't find enough capable grad students, funding drops, and tuition has to go up to make up the shortfall.

A university is a "business", in the sense that they have to "balance the books". While universities are more like non-profits in that they don't make a financial profit, they also cannot stay in business if their costs exceed their income and they are losing money year after year.

[chopnhack]

My numbers are real: << Just this past year, UCF’s Board of Trustees voted to increase tuition the maximum amount allowed by law, 15%.>>
source: http://knightnews.com/2013/03/florid...-universities/

If you read further, Florida is 41st in rank of average yearly tuition, so this is certainly not an isolated case if FL schools are relatively cheap in comparison to other states. There are several schools down here that I have heard reported of maxing out the increase yearly for some time.

Cost of college ed. has doubled in the last 10 years, where exactly is the value? If the cost has doubled, but the wages have either stagnated or barely kept up with inflation, why bother getting that degree?

As to why would one want to take a paycut and become a professor... well some folks have to retire from the workforce sometimes ;-) (and yes I can say this as I have teachers in my family who suffered at the hands of the admins and students alike)

[LCHIEN]

There's a strong need for STEM professionals - Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics - in this country that is not always being met. The united States has grappled with manufacturing competitiveness with foreign manufacturers for many years but American Engineering, technology and innovation is still greatly admired around the world. Many STEM students in the US are foreign students - drawn here by the education, and opportunites. In an ideal world American students would be taking these courses and getting these jobs. I don't think its foreign wrokers doing the work cheap that's the big issue. Its the fact that foreign students have the get up and go for this type of knowledge. FOr some reason too many American students think the math is too hard and the courses too tough and prefer to major in stuff that there's less damand for. IN many cultures, Engineers are held in great esteem. In the US, not so much unless you are the million/billionaire creator of some tech startup that made it big and went public.

Personally its my opinion that engineers make the country run. Take away your cars, your computers, your cell phone/smartphones/ipods, cheap electricity/plentiful gasoline and medical dugs, diagnostics and technology and what would life be like? And these people can and do make daily use of their education.

[chopnhack]

Engineering is needed, but is the demand high? About a decade ago I enrolled in a eng. program thru u of SD, I wanted to switch careers to something more concrete and less theoretical. I thought with the aging infrastructure there would be large growth in jobs. I didn't begin the program b/c after 6 months of reviewing the course structure, timing, travel and the extended internship to apply for the PE, I chose to say in current career. I couldn't afford the loss of income for those many years before coming back to par. I regret not having the knowledge, but I also didn't see the "wave" of jobs anticipated. Another thing that bothered me was the outsourcing of these jobs... I am glad I stayed where I was at, otherwise I would just have more debt.

[woodturner]

Engineering is needed, but is the demand high?

Depends on the specific discipline, and demand tends to be somewhat cyclical and driven by contracts and events. For example, after the Apollo program shut down, many engineers could not find jobs.

Current demand for EEs, SE (software), CompE, etc. is very high and exceeds available resources. But unemployment overall is also very low - when you hear about "high unemployment", the issue is geographic location. For example, in Detroit they complain there "are no manufacturing jobs", while here they complain they need to hire another 700,000 manufacturing workers and can't find them.

I expect the demand for computer and software types to continue, since technology has become central to our society. However, if they figure out how to successfully outsource engineering, we have an economic depression, or something else unexpected happens, the job outlook could change dramatically.

[woodturner]

My numbers are real: << Just this past year, UCF’s Board of Trustees voted to increase tuition the maximum amount allowed by law, 15%.>>

I wasn't questioning your numbers, I just don't think most universities could get away with that large of an increase. The the university where I teach is very hesitant to increase tuition more than a few percent a year.

[cabinetman]

Engineering is needed, but is the demand high? About a decade ago I enrolled in a eng. program thru u of SD, I wanted to switch careers to something more concrete and less theoretical. I thought with the aging infrastructure there would be large growth in jobs. I didn't begin the program b/c after 6 months of reviewing the course structure, timing, travel and the extended internship to apply for the PE, I chose to say in current career. I couldn't afford the loss of income for those many years before coming back to par. I regret not having the knowledge, but I also didn't see the "wave" of jobs anticipated. Another thing that bothered me was the outsourcing of these jobs... I am glad I stayed where I was at, otherwise I would just have more debt.

And now, looking back you are saying the choices you made bore out your predictions. If it was only possible to see into the future. It would be easy to plan a course of study that a specific degree would be of an absolute benefit. There are employment requirements in many ads stating certain educational requirements. Most likely there could be a line forming. Then other criteria may bear on the desirability of the applicant other than just the educational achievements. It may be age, experience if any, schools/universities attended, grades, and we can't rule out personal likes and dislikes.

I don't buy going through the rigors of getting a professional degree, and then decide to teach, as it would benefit the future professional. There is more of a job security that way, and presents an income not based on competitive contemporaries, either as an employee, or being self employed.

.

[LCHIEN]

there's always a demand for good engineers.
Problem is, there's a lot of engineers that are not so good. Whether they were in a bad program, got trained by a bad first boss or a bad company and didn't get good experience, or simply didn't apply themselves in college, its hard to tell.
But in engineering R&D jobs where i managed a lot of engineers, I've looked at literally thousands of resumes and found way too many who probably couldn't hack it. And I've hired a few of those guys when desperate.
But in the less intensive engineering category there's tons of technical jobs requiring less in the way of creative and theoretical knowledge, postions in manufacturing, installing and serviceing and sales.

[woodturner]

there's always a demand for good engineers.
Problem is, there's a lot of engineers that are not so good. Whether they were in a bad program, got trained by a bad first boss or a bad company and didn't get good experience, or simply didn't apply themselves in college, its hard to tell.
But in engineering R&D jobs where i managed a lot of engineers, I've looked at literally thousands of resumes and found way too many who probably couldn't hack it. And I've hired a few of those guys when desperate.
But in the less intensive engineering category there's tons of technical jobs requiring less in the way of creative and theoretical knowledge, postions in manufacturing, installing and serviceing and sales.

All good points. My theory is that a good engineer is "born", not "made". Good engineers have a little different perspective, a little different way of thinking about things that seems to be inherent, and no one has figured out how to teach it to a person that does not already have it. Not quite sure how to explain it, but I imagine other engineers will know what I mean.

One of the frustrations that led me to teach was the difficulty in finding and hiring good engineers. It was just getting too hard to find even marginally competent engineers to do the work, and I got tired of doing their jobs for them. As a professor, I get to help develop the next generation of engineers, while also getting to do all the fun part of engineering in my research.

It used to be that companies like Bell Labs funded much of the research. In the current business climate, though, companies must focus on quarterly profits and can really only develop products. Most research is now done at universities, and most researchers are affiliated with universities.

For me, researching and developing new technologies is the fun part of engineering, and I wasn't getting to do nearly enough of that in industry. As a professor, I get to choose my projects, do the work I want, sub out the grunt work, and own the patents and royalties that result from my work. Professors are essentially the CEOs of research companies, and it's not unusual for faculty to form a company to market products developed from their research. For me, it's really the best of all worlds.

I mentioned earlier that faculty salaries are low compare to industry, but didn't explain how the research part works from a financial perspective. Research grants awarded to faculty can be used to fund salary as well as materials and equipment. As a result, most faculty are able to supplement their university salary significantly and their net earnings are often more than they would make in industry. However, it's more variable and more self-driven than in industry - a "go getter" can make a pretty significant income, while those who are more complacent may subsist on their university salary. Still, winning grants is highly competitive and requires a high level of ability and self motivation to succeed, so some people find they prefer the less competitive environment of the business world. In addition, for new faculty it often takes a couple years to get their research program established and start drawing in the larger grants. Sadly, a lot of faculty don't learn to survive in this highly competitive environment and end up leaving academia for less competitive options like a job in industry or self-employment.

[durango dude]

I've worked in the public sector as well as the private sector of higher education.

One thing the public sector deals with is entitlements. Families tend to think that their kids are entitled to a college education.

So - institutions are pressured to admit marginally prepared students - and then they get criticized for having low graduation rates (which happen to be the product of admitting marginally prepared students).

With public support dwindling for higher education, tuition is going up (9 percent a year in Colorado). AND - the marginally prepared students aren't graduating - but they're borrowing money to pay for college - which creates student loan defaults. (another one of the dirty words in our business).

A lot of the problems that we're facing could be resolved by dropping the assumption that students deserve to attend college. That's not how it's shaking out, though ---- colleges are being told to figure out how to serve those poorly prepared students (which raises the cost of a degree - which increases tuition).

I've just been studying Berea College (KY) - where I think I'd like to send my third oldest. They've got a decent approach to educating students at a reasonable cost --- they put them to work!

[gsmittle]

… too many American students think the math is too hard and the courses too tough …

Personally its my opinion that engineers make the country run. Take away your cars, your computers, your cell phone/smartphones/ipods, cheap electricity/plentiful gasoline and medical dugs, diagnostics and technology and what would life be like? And these people can and do make daily use of their education.

Not wanting to sound like a whiner, but for some of us the math IS too hard. I haven't passed a math class without major help (as in 4 hrs of tutoring four days a week) since I entered high school. It simply doesn't make sense to me and my brain doesn't work that way. [/whine]

What would we do without all our technology? Sit around the fire and watch the storytellers.

g.

[woodturner]

Not wanting to sound like a whiner, but for some of us the math IS too hard. I haven't passed a math class without major help (as in 4 hrs of tutoring four days a week) since I entered high school. It simply doesn't make sense to me and my brain doesn't work that way. [/whine]

Everyone has a different skill set and strengths and weaknesses. My fear is that sociey is becoming too technology oriented. Take that trend to the logical conclusion and we have a society where some skills sets and thus some people can't function. We alreay have people making fun of and bullying those who are less technically skilled, where will it all end?

It really gets down to how we, as society, value people. Society as a whole clearly believes that those born with "privilege" should get paid more and should be richer. For example, we pay professional athletes and fashion models obscene wages, even though they contribute little to improving communities and lifestyles of others. Yet we pay many teachers fairly low salaries, even though they are the ones who are shaping and education society and can have a huge impact on improving lives of others and society.

I don't think it will get any better until we, the people who make up society, recognize that "intelligence" is not represented by a single skill set but rather comes in many forms. Even Einstein was very weak in math skills, but he still developed profoundly insightful theories that changed our world in practical ways.

This seems to have been the goal in many of the programs we complain about so much. For example, standardized testing of ability to confirm a student has mastered key skills seems reasonable, but it's the way it has been implemented that is problematic. Providing different paths for those with different skills sets and natural abilities seems reasonable, too, but we have twisted that into "smart" and "dumb" rather than just different.

I think we have a lot of growing up do to as a society, sadly.

[cabinetman]

Einstein weak in math skills? I guess we all are entitled to our opinions. What is sad is that some have an inflated view of their abilities. While they may further their educational achievements, it's dealing and competing in the real world job market. The real world is competing with your co-worker, who may have a higher aptitude for the actual job performance. Or, becoming self employed and being subject to and coping with, the stresses of the real world. An individual can go through the motions of getting educated, and settle for less as a way out of and possibly preventing whatever failures that are eminent.

When I was single (between marriages) I dated a high school guidance counselor that had a standing joke. Students were given tests to help decide what course of study befits their skills and intelligence levels. The story goes on about one student that went in for the results, and the counselor stated that the scores were very high in some areas, and a field of study was one the student might find difficult to pursue. There wasn't much of a demand for stagecoach drivers.

.

[LCHIEN]

.... We alreay have people making fun of and bullying those who are less technically skilled, where will it all end?

...

that's a new one to me, the geeks are now the new bullies?