Poll on SawStop

[dbhost]

Mr. Anderson,

I am curious how you come to the assertions you do. And ask for referene to supporting material to back up your claims...

1. The major saw manufacturers were trying to shut Steve Gass down, and make him go away. He HAD (emphasis not screaming) to seek government/legislation avenues to get the major saw companies away from his throat. He did what he had to do to survive.

Just exactly how were the major saw manufacturers try to shut Steve Gass down? What evidence of this it out there?

2. His invention has saved numerous finger amputations, or maybe worse. Ask those people if he is a scum sucking leach, as many of you suggest, or a brilliant inventor, to whom they are very grateful.

I don't think many here are disputing Steve Gass' contributions to the advancement of woodworking safety. The objection is NOT to his invention of his Blade Brake technology, but rather to his use of the courts to advance his financial goals. It is possible that he is a scum sucking leach AND a brillaint inventor at the same time. I can give numerous examples from history of how truly evil people have done great things.

3. That the major saw companies could have opted to license his technology, and installed it on their own brand of saw. But those companies chose not to, even at such a small cost of an additional $150-$300. Those are the companies/people, which you should be upset with (really pissed at, actually), certainly not Gass.

You are absolutely right, they COULD have opted to license his Blade Brake technology. Now let's say Joe Weekend Warrior wants to buy a cheap table saw, something along the lines of a Ryobi BTS12S. Now that saw retails for $119.00, how much business sense does it make to add on a $150.00 add on to this machine, which the consumer would have to pay... Simply put, the guy that is willing to buy a $119.00 table saw is not awfully likely to pay $270.00 for the same saw with a blade brake...

4. That most here, cannot grasp the legal concept of negligence. No, I am not an attorney, but it remains a very simple concept to grasp.

Where do you get that idea? By your statement you infer that the saw companies are negligent for not including blade brake technology. Yet this is NOT something that is mandated, not common practice in the industry, or by government.

You are right that negligence is a legitimate legal concept, and a user that rams his body parts into a spinning, carbide tipped blade would certainly be negligent of proper safety procedure wouldn't he or she?

Did anyone see the movie Tucker, or read about the man and his innovations? The major auto companies used their Washington D.C. influence to eventually shut the Tucker car company down. Tucker's competition even used the argument that Tucker was admitting that his cars were inherently unsafe, by innovating and installing seatbelts in his cars. He was investigated by the U.S. government, and prosecuted by a U.S. Attorney (*the attorney was later convicted on 17 charges of bribery). The competition eventually shut Tucker down, via trumped up allegations of stock fraud. Tucker was acquitted of the charges, but his company could not recover from the trial.

How is SawStop even vaguely similar to Tucker? Gass being prosecuted by the Government in behalf of the other saw manufacturers?

...and not taking the situation at face value, I have a more educated view...

Have you read the Popular Woodworking article where they review the court documents...

Osorio Wasn't Using the Guard or Rip Fence

If you read through the article, it would appear that Mr. Osario was TRYING to hurt himself.

At the time of the accident, he was trying to make a rip cut on a 2'-long, 2-1/2"-wide by 3/4"-thick piece of oak flooring, according to court records. He was attempting to cut the board “freehand” without the rip fence, according to the documents.

and...

At the time of the accident, he was trying to make a rip cut on a 2'-long, 2-1/2"-wide by 3/4"-thick piece of oak flooring, according to court records. He was attempting to cut the board “freehand” without the rip fence, according to the documents.

Now Mr. Osario, being from Columbia likely is a Spanish Speaker. Ryobi DOES make their user manuals available in Spanish as well as English, and a few other languages. And the user manuals CLEARLY recommend against pretty much EVERYTHING this guy was doing...

Now Mr. Osario, according to the articles quoting of court documents, has a degree in Computer Science. This would lead one to believe that he is literate.

So now... Who was negligent in this?

Mind you, I am happy for Mr. Gass that he is able to have a company like SawStop. And if there are other manufacturers out there that are misusing the legal system to bring his company down, they should be STRONGLY opposed. Likewise Gass' misuse of the courts should be strongly opposed as well.

Take this garbage out of the courts and put it in the open market, let the chips fall where they may. If Blade Brake technology is that much of a selling point, and he prices it where it is attractive to potential buyers, then he will succeed, and other companies will flock to Gass to buy licenses for his technology so they can get their share of the pie. But if it isn't that attractive to consumers, or is priced beyond what the market will bear, the product will fail in the market and go away. That is how free markets work.

[tommyt654]

Bill, Your way out in leftfield on this one bud, A matter of fact not even close with regard to Gass and other tablesaw manufacturers. Perhaps you should keep reading cause I have a sneaking suspicion things are going to get real intetersting with Gass and his involvment in the Osario case and others

[LinuxRandal]

You are absolutely right, they COULD have opted to license his Blade Brake technology. Now let's say Joe Weekend Warrior wants to buy a cheap table saw, something along the lines of a Ryobi BTS12S. Now that saw retails for $119.00, how much business sense does it make to add on a $150.00 add on to this machine, which the consumer would have to pay... Simply put, the guy that is willing to buy a $119.00 table saw is not awfully likely to pay $270.00 for the same saw with a blade brake...



Where do you get that idea? By your statement you infer that the saw companies are negligent for not including blade brake technology. Yet this is NOT something that is mandated, not common practice in the industry, or by government.

On the first quote, I believe I have read the same report that Mr. Anderson read, some time ago. The point you make is exactly one of the points made by the lawyers for the GROUP of tablesaw manufacturers. They would be more liable, if they included it on their high end, and not low end saws.

As for your second point. I had a magazine with one of my favorite cars in it some years back (before a water line break). In it was a 1969 Hurst Oldsmobile, one of THREE, that included an AIRBAG option (you read that right). People didn't pay for safety, then, and in general, without spouse coaxing, they don't now, as they think, "it can't happen to me".
By the same standards, I would guess the original poster, would think that all the car manufacturers should have included the tech from back then (much different then now).

[dbhost]

On the first quote, I believe I have read the same report that Mr. Anderson read, some time ago. The point you make is exactly one of the points made by the lawyers for the GROUP of tablesaw manufacturers. They would be more liable, if they included it on their high end, and not low end saws.

As for your second point. I had a magazine with one of my favorite cars in it some years back (before a water line break). In it was a 1969 Hurst Oldsmobile, one of THREE, that included an AIRBAG option (you read that right). People didn't pay for safety, then, and in general, without spouse coaxing, they don't now, as they think, "it can't happen to me".
By the same standards, I would guess the original poster, would think that all the car manufacturers should have included the tech from back then (much different then now).

I am a bit of a fan of the Hurst Olds 4-4-2.... I have never heard anything of the sort you are talking about there. Do you know of anything online I can look that up? Google is delivering nothing on that... What I do come up with though is an article on about.com that does show Oldsmobile offering an air bag option, but not on the 4-4-2, and considerably later than 1969...

The 1973, Oldsmobile Toronado was the first car with a passenger air bag intended for sale to the public.

[LinuxRandal]

I am a bit of a fan of the Hurst Olds 4-4-2.... I have never heard anything of the sort you are talking about there. Do you know of anything online I can look that up? Google is delivering nothing on that... What I do come up with though is an article on about.com that does show Oldsmobile offering an air bag option, but not on the 4-4-2, and considerably later than 1969...

It was why I kept the magazine (and was SO po'd when the water line broke). I've tried for a long time to remember which one it was, so I could at least find out if there was a back issue.
That said, I remember a discussion with a friend who didn't believe me until I showed him the article. The way he read it, was the airbag, was an option installed NOT by GM, but by Hurst. I have never contacted them, but that was something I had intended years ago as they had made a few (don't remember the number) that were NOT supposed to be sold (and eventually were).

I just spend probably a half hour searching for which magazine. (should have been 86-88 time frame)

[germdoc]

I have been thinking about this issue a lot because I will be moving soon and likely buying a new table saw. I will almost certainly get a SawStop, because I have to examine patients with my fingers (use your imagination for this one) and I also play guitar. Besides, I'm attached to them (the fingers) and would hate to lose them.

I have thought about this in every conceivable way. From the standpoint of progress in tool safety, it doesn't matter if Gass is an attorney, a visionary or a greedy jerk. (The website says he has a PhD in physics.) It doesn't matter if the technology is introduced through exclusive contracts, his own company or is provided free of charge. It doesn't matter if he testifies at trial through altruism or greed or revenge. It also doesn't matter if the price right now for a saw with SawStop technology is $500 or $3000. The only question is does it work.

Imagine you're a patient. You don't want to get a life-threatening Staph infection (MRSA), right? Do you care if the doctor washes his hands because he's conscientious, because of hospital or (shudder) government policy, because he loses money every time there's an infection, or because of threat of lawsuits? You wouldn't really care. Moreover, would you quibble over a presurgery washing solution that costs $8 per bottle (true example, BTW), knowing an infection could cost tens of thousands of dollars?

Read a brief history of Semmelweis, one of medicine's great jerks and primadonnas but an absolute genius when it came to preventing hospital infections. The term "Semmelweis effect" was coined to mean "the reflex-like rejection of new knowledge because it contradicts entrenched norms, beliefs or paradigms".

By nature I don't like lawsuits. But, let's face it, legal threats get action with employee and homeowner safety just like they do in the medical field. The legal system will determine whether specific lawsuits have merit and if companies were negligent to not use this technology when it was available. I may not agree with their decision. But such lawsuits push the industry to adopt safety technology.

The era of the $300 table saw may be coming to an end. Unfortunate, but 1) there is a cost to progress and 2) once the technology matures and other inventors come out with competing products the price will decrease.

[phi1l]

The only question is does it work.

Or more correctly does it work that much better than what's otherwise available.

I am becoming of the opinion that the whole David vs. Goliath thing is just a big red herring.

The REAL question is how much safer is SawStop vs. no Sawstop.

And my conclusion is that it will make a saw marginally safer,.. but not totally safe. It does not even address the REAL hazard in using a TS, the kick back. So to the extent that someone with a SawStop will feel more comfortable removing the blade guard ( along with the splitter & anti-kickback pawls ), SawStop can actually make a TS more dangerous, overall.

It can be turned off, in which case it is no good at all. It can give false positives which are an expensive aggravation.

But is it better than a properly installed blade guard? I really don't know. I suspect it really depends on the situation. I think that in an educational setting or where inexperienced people are using a TS it probably makes sense. Probably for a high production rate commercial setting it makes sense too. But for the conscientious experienced wood worker, probably less so.

I had an incident with a TS 35 years ago that REALLY made an impression, ever since I can't turn on a power tool without remembering what can happen. For me SawStop provides very little additional safety.

You can rightfully argue that argue that that Mr. Osoria & his employer made made mistakes that resulted in his injuries, but you must admit that if he was using a SawStop, he probably would have just gone home at the end of the workday with a bandaid in a single finger, rather than, an unplanned trip to the emergency room. Actually, from what he said he was doing, I think he is lucky to be alive. Of course, if his employer had to include the cost of payments on a SawStop in his bid for the job, Mr. Osoria probably would have been on unemployment, instead of working. (but that's a different issue.)

For me, I am happy & feel properly respectful for my Sears BTS21 clone. But if I was buying a saw that someone else might use some day, I would seriously be considering a SawStop.

Doc, good luck with your upcoming move & your new saw, I hope you never have to find out if the SawStop works right. I would volunteer to come over & help with the move, but I think I'm gonna be busy that weekend