Uaw

[Ed62]

Think about a few things:
1. Big Steel
2. Airlines

Both had huge unions, huge benefit packages and failed. The only difference was the airlines made concessions.

I had over 30 years in big steel. What benefits did we have that would cause you to define them as huge benefit packages? I'm not saying we didn't have benefits, but I don't think they were excessive. After 20 years on the job we got 3 weeks vacation per year (less before that). After over 30 years, I left with a small retirement. The most I ever made in a year was around $32,000.00. And that was with a lot of overtime. That was 1986, so the wages were not bad. Just not what many people think we made, considering how many overtime hours it took to get there. Got laid off? Too bad. Hit the unemployment line.

Ed

[Hellrazor]

Ed,

The big steel company up here had family health insurance for life, their vacation was insane, wages were high, etc. The one guy I knew averaged around 8 weeks vacation a year.

[Ed62]

Which company did he work for?

Ed

[paintandbodtman]

Been following this thread and lots of good points, I've been self-employed 95% of my adult life and my customers have been comprised of all socio-economic classes from doctors,lawyers,common every day laborers,you name em I've fixed their cars.The one thing that usually stood out when dealing with everyone was the higher up the socio-economic ladder the customer was the more they expected me to work for nothing in comparison to what they thought their time was worth. The lower they were on that ladder they just wanted a decent job for a decent price and did'nt mind that I made a decent living off of them.
Being in a small semi-rural community located about halfway between Charlotte and Winston-salem it was easy to follow peoples attitudes.The higher up that ladder the more the people expected me to help them commit insurance fraud when they had an accident because the insc co owned them concidering how much their premiums were.
The point I'm making being the more some people make the more they expect everyone else to work for less when they go to spend it.Thats the personal greed that I have'nt heard being addressed here the way it really should.When you make decent money based on your skills,education or whatever and spend accordingly everyone gets a piece of the pie and a lot of our economic woes would self-correct.
I read some of these posts and think D@mn these people want products and services for the lowest denominater and expect quality and first class service for pennies what rock did they crawl out from under, don't they realize they not going to get this for wal-mart and biglots prices.
Just my .02 worth which is'nt worth much on this forum.

wayne

[germdoc]

I'm gonna jump into the fray for no particular reason. I think all this has been said before, but I'll repeat it.

From what I've read autoworkers expect to make concessions to keep company going. However, current wages are only ~10% of the price of a car--even a drastic cut wouldn't effect bottom line much. What's really killing car companies in terms of costs are things current workers have no control over: medical costs, fuel and material costs, and legacy costs--pensions and benefits for retirees.

I also agree with what's been said before. If we talk about the government forcing auto workers to renegotiate contracts, accept limits, etc., let's apply the same rules to management and extend it to Wall Street bailout. Why are a bank executive's pay and perks any more sacrosanct than an autoworkers?

[paintandbodtman]

I'm gonna jump into the fray for no particular reason. I think all this has been said before, but I'll repeat it.

I also agree with what's been said before. If we talk about the government forcing auto workers to renegotiate contracts, accept limits, etc., let's apply the same rules to management and extend it to Wall Street bailout. Why are a bank executive's pay and perks any more sacrosanct than an autoworkers?

Let's don't stop there I have'nt heard anyone address the pay, pensions and benefits that all the government workers (local, state, and federal)are getting at the taxpayers expense. And all this while millions of taxpayers are losing their jobs. Its hign time they started rolling back their perks also.

Wayne

[ragswl4]

Let's don't stop there I have'nt heard anyone address the pay, pensions and benefits that all the government workers (local, state, and federal)are getting at the taxpayers expense. And all this while millions of taxpayers are losing their jobs. Its hign time they started rolling back their perks also.

Wayne

What exactly did you have in mind? Shall we roll back the retirement perks of the retired military folks? Shall we ask the folks on Social Security to roll back their retirement? Shall we ask all government retires to give up some or all of their retirement?

While we are at it, shall we ask everyone in the country that receives a retirement check from whatever source to return part of that money back to the company where they worked? or at least send it to the government to help bailout mismanaged companies?

How about the self employed, shall we ask that a portion of their income or if retired, a portion of their 401K or other retirement funds go to the government to be used in the same manner?

What's the plan?

[JSUPreston]

Let's don't stop there I have'nt heard anyone address the pay, pensions and benefits that all the government workers (local, state, and federal)are getting at the taxpayers expense. And all this while millions of taxpayers are losing their jobs. Its hign time they started rolling back their perks also.

Wayne

State of Alabama just did. Governor declared 12.5% proration on Monday. All hiring and promotions are frozen. Pay raises as well. I was due up for an annual raise on Jan. 1. Not sure if mine was affected yet. Fortunately, we're not looking at layoffs right now. If anyone retires or leaves, the position will remain vacant and jobs duties will be spread across those left. We will probably cut 3,000 in the next couple of years by doing so.

Wayne, I don't know about other states, but I could be making $20k to $30k a year more in the private sector. My insurance isn't a whole lot better than what I had in the private sector. About the only real perk I get over what I had elsewhere is an additional 3 paid holidays a year. These were granted by legislature years ago under another budgetary crunch. Mentality was to give additional holidays instead of annual raises.

Pensions in Alabama are in pretty good shape, and most years are completely self funded through wise investments (at least that is my understanding...I'm not an economist). This year of course is an exception, but I imagine there are reserves in place to offset some of this.

Is there fluff and waste in government. Of course, just like the "real world." Some agencies and states are worse than others. My agency runs a pretty tight ship, unlike a previous agency I worked for. I can't go into much more detail than that in a public forum.

I am thankful that I have a job, and that things are looking pretty stable for me. For those of you who are looking at possibly be laid off, you have my prayers. I hope that you bounce back soon.

PS: my annual raise is based upon performance. My supervisor doesn't cut us a whole lot of slack, and I have had my fair share of tail chewings. I usually receive great or excellent marks on my reviews. My job responsibilities could be divided up and keep at least 2 people busy most days. I took a few minutes of my lunch today to make this posting.

[paintandbodtman]

What exactly did you have in mind? Shall we roll back the retirement perks of the retired military folks? Shall we ask the folks on Social Security to roll back their retirement? Shall we ask all government retires to give up some or all of their retirement?

While we are at it, shall we ask everyone in the country that receives a retirement check from whatever source to return part of that money back to the company where they worked? or at least send it to the government to help bailout mismanaged companies?

How about the self employed, shall we ask that a portion of their income or if retired, a portion of their 401K or other retirement funds go to the government to be used in the same manner?

What's the plan?

Looks like you answered your own question in your response.
I don't begrudge anyone what they worked for.We have a large segment of our society that bought into the premise that if you as an employee give me longivity, loyalty good work ethics,ect,ect and I as an employer will reward you with decent benefits and a decent retirement when the time comes.Our government, IE: laws,legislatures and whatever have let every major employer and industry that made these promises wiggle out of these obligations.
That only leaves one segment of society with these perks and that is government workers.To quote someone in an early post why should these people be any more deserveing then then the rest of society.
We have a situation today and have had for the last decade where because of medical technology coupled along with early retirement people are living longer on retirement then they worked paying into the system that they are relying on.We as a society cannot sustain that lifestyle if we want to remain competitive in the world economy and not wither into a third world nation ourselves.
I don't profess to know the answers but we did'nt get here overnight and we are'nt going to correct these problems overnight. I also don't think that protecting any one segment of society over the rest is the answer and thats what a lot of people replying to this thread are implying with some of the posts I've read.
As far as self-employed people giving up part of their 401k or anyone else for that matter aparrently you have'nt watched the markets lately because if you have you'd see that is has already happened.

[paintandbodtman]

[QUOTE=JSUPreston;383506]State of Alabama just did. Governor declared 12.5% proration on Monday. All hiring and promotions are frozen. Pay raises as well. I was due up for an annual raise on Jan. 1. Not sure if mine was affected yet. Fortunately, we're not looking at layoffs right now. If anyone retires or leaves, the position will remain vacant and jobs duties will be spread across those left. We will probably cut 3,000 in the next couple of years by doing so.

Wayne, I don't know about other states, but I could be making $20k to $30k a year more in the private sector. My insurance isn't a whole lot better than what I had in the private sector. About the only real perk I get over what I had elsewhere is an additional 3 paid holidays a year. These were granted by legislature years ago under another budgetary crunch. Mentality was to give additional holidays instead of annual raises.

Pensions in Alabama are in pretty good shape, and most years are completely self funded through wise investments (at least that is my understanding...I'm not an economist). This year of course is an exception, but I imagine there are reserves in place to offset some of this.

Is there fluff and waste in government. Of course, just like the "real world." Some agencies and states are worse than others. My agency runs a pretty tight ship, unlike a previous agency I worked for. I can't go into much more detail than that in a public forum.

I am thankful that I have a job, and that things are looking pretty stable for me. For those of you who are looking at possibly be laid off, you have my prayers. I hope that you bounce back soon.

PS: my annual raise is based upon performance. My supervisor doesn't cut us a whole lot of slack, and I have had my fair share of tail chewings. I usually receive great or excellent marks on my reviews. My job responsibilities could be divided up and keep at least 2 people busy most days. I took a few minutes of my lunch today to make this posting.[/QUOTE

Most government workers in management positions that I've talked to says that once a worker gets thru the probationary period that it practically take an act of congress to dismiss them. They say its just as hard to fire that worker as it is for a private employer to fire the union worker.

As far as the private vs government employment goes everyone says initally job security vs more money was the trade off when they chose to work for gov vs private.Add the perks to that and traditionally government workers in the long run are better off then a comperable worker in the private work place.

I still believe that in todays workplace if we are going to roll back wages and retirements then everyone should feel the impact of that axe including government workers.
I have'nt heard it addressed but I wonder if the UAW would have accepted the conditions of the bailout if the pay raise for federal judges had not been put in the bill giving them an immediate $5000.00 pay raise.There we go again, tearing down one segment of society while lifting another up.

wayne

[LCHIEN]

What exactly did you have in mind? Shall we roll back the retirement perks of the retired military folks? Shall we ask the folks on Social Security to roll back their retirement? Shall we ask all government retires to give up some or all of their retirement?

While we are at it, shall we ask everyone in the country that receives a retirement check from whatever source to return part of that money back to the company where they worked? or at least send it to the government to help bailout mismanaged companies?

How about the self employed, shall we ask that a portion of their income or if retired, a portion of their 401K or other retirement funds go to the government to be used in the same manner?

What's the plan?

That's the plan. They just don't announce it that way. They call it inflation, instead. When the Gov't invents a few trillion for the banks and the auto companies inflation is bound to happen. All people on fixed income get screwed.

[germdoc]

Informative article on the guys we are bailing out with $700B:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/18/bu.../18pay.html?hp

BTW, the $70/hr. UAW rate that's widely quoted is misleading:

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.ht...2-56dfc3323682

Anyway, as I said I think things have to change in Detroit. Nevertheless, it seems a little absurd to me to focus our wrath on workers making ~$60,000/yr. who did not make management decisions that hurt company, while ignoring the Wall Street parasites who made (and are still making!) a killing at our expense. At least UAW guys make something useful with their hands. Not sure you can drive a hedge fund...

[jlm]

Not sure you can drive a hedge fund...

Apparently you can drive one into the ground - plenty of guys on Wall Street are doing that right now...

[cgallery]

That's the plan. They just don't announce it that way. They call it inflation, instead. When the Gov't invents a few trillion for the banks and the auto companies inflation is bound to happen. All people on fixed income get screwed.

EXACTLY!!!

All the pundits are talking about DEFLATION. Nobody is talking about INFLATION. When they mention INFLATION, it is only say that nobody is worried about it right now.

Now, if the pundits were ever right, they wouldn't be called pundits, they'd be called BILLIONAIRES.

I think the reality is that we've really set ourselves up for a period of terrible STAGFLATION, where inflation is HIGH, interest rates are HIGH, and unemployment is HIGH.

Inflation will be high because the money supply has grown too much (I think I heard something like 20% within the last few months?). Interest rates will be high because the people that buy our debt will have to take into account that they will be repaid with dollars worth significantly less (and the uncertainty factor is in there, too). And unemployment will be high because we're going to be in a prolonged recession.

[dbhost]

I am no big proponet of the Unions, but I believe they are getting a bit too much krap. We don't know exactly what the 'wage cuts' mean. Is it really pay cuts to the current workers, or benefit cuts to the retired workers? If I was a retired UAW, how could I make up a cut in pension or cut in health care benefits that I was promised and was supposed to be funded?

That being said, Uncle Cracker and LCHIEN are probably right. The Unions were often needed to get basic fair pay and proper working conditions. Once those goals were met, those in power strove to stay in power by promising (and getting) extrordinary pay and extrordinary benefits and will likely cook the goose laying the golden eggs.

True, to a point. But if the auto manufacturers go under, there will be no pot to draw from at all, so lose something, or lose everything. Only an idiot would stand firm this way... Better to lose part rather than all...