Uaw

[LCHIEN]

just as I predicted the UAW are going to kill their hosts.
Everyone is saying how swift action is required but the UAW won't accept any pay cuts (to the level of non UAW workers in the USA working for the Japanaese automakers) for 2 more years, in 2011.

Now the Big 3 are going under and the UAW can proudly point to how they held the line on pay and benefits while all their workers are furloughed.

[Tamarack]

Some unions really are run by idiots with absolutely no concern for their members!

Paul

[Uncle Cracker]

The unions want their members to stand up and fight the good fight... and to sacrifice their livelihoods in the cause of making some megacorp knuckle under. But union bosses can pretty much stay comfy while all the carnage is going on. Unions were a good thing when they came about, but I'm not sure they haven't outlived their usefulness.

[gjat]

I am no big proponet of the Unions, but I believe they are getting a bit too much krap. We don't know exactly what the 'wage cuts' mean. Is it really pay cuts to the current workers, or benefit cuts to the retired workers? If I was a retired UAW, how could I make up a cut in pension or cut in health care benefits that I was promised and was supposed to be funded?

That being said, Uncle Cracker and LCHIEN are probably right. The Unions were often needed to get basic fair pay and proper working conditions. Once those goals were met, those in power strove to stay in power by promising (and getting) extrordinary pay and extrordinary benefits and will likely cook the goose laying the golden eggs.

[rcp612]

Now the Big 3 are going under and the UAW can proudly point to how they held the line on pay and benefits while all their workers are furloughed.

The unemployed auto workers will have plenty of time to complain about their jobs being out-sourced and/or exported to foreign countries whose workers are more concerned about keeping their jobs than in feeding the fat cats at the top.
Just my opinion,,,, FWIW

[cgallery]

Now the Big 3 are going under and the UAW can proudly point to how they held the line on pay and benefits while all their workers are furloughed.

Agreed 110%

This is interesting to watch unfold. I've been predicting a giant game of chicken between the union, the big three, and congress.

From their past performance, I'm not surprised by the actions of the union. But I now think the chances of the union making itself irrelevant by refusing to negotiate at all are higher than they've ever been.

I now predict a very fast move into Chapter 11 for the big three as they move quickly to avoid the change-up in congress and white house, which may ultimately lead to a less desirable (for the big three) outcome.

[herb fellows]

The bottom line is that the union bosses don't want to lose their jobs. They want someone else to play 'bad cop'. Their short-sightedness will be the ruination of the auto industry in America. I guess they've never heard the adage about a half chicken being better than none.

[430752]

Do you really think that the success or failure of three of the largest manufacturing concerns in the whole of the United States falls to whether Joe Bluecollar and his union bosses accept a wage cut? You really think but for the Union, Detroit would be blessed with record profits and all would be right in the world? And you also think Gettelfinger, one man, controls the fate of the United States since without this bail-out, if the auto companies go out of business in any way shape or form, that we're going from recession to depression where 1 in 12 to 1 iin 14 jobs is tied to the auto industry? One man, little stinking Gettlefinger? Cuz if so, he's more powerful than Obama, Bush and everyone other politician combined.

And you think his approx $160K salary is outrageous when he is the head of a 500K member organization that regularly negotiates multi-hundred million dollar contracts with some of the toughest and largest companies on the planet? You don't think that, in perspective, his salary, which is probably equal to the starting salary in one of the big 3's legal or accounting department might actually be the biggest bargain of the century? And you think that Gettlefinger is risking the livlihood of 500K members, the economy, and the great american tradition of Detroit Steel for a whopping buck-sixty a year. You haven't been able to get rich off a buck-sixty since 1990, but he's gonna destroy the world for this? Live nicely, sure, risk the world to protect your buck-sixty? right, and I saw pigs flying the other night.

And you don't think it odd that no conditions on pay cuts for rank and file workers was ever attached to the bank bailouts? Or that they were never asked to submit a turnaround plan for their industries? And it was okay that the Union never got an extra non-contractual bump when times were good and profits made, but when times were bad and profits lost, its more than okay to take a non-contractual pay cut? I mean, with all the degrees and intelligence and power that Detroit and its lawyers, accountants, economists, and other people have, it is only natural that the salvation of the entire auto industry falls on Joe Bluecollar? The one guy who had absolutely nothing to do with the economy, the bailout package, the chioce of cars detroit made, the advertising detroit cooked up, etc. How dare he make enought to afford a home, two cars, and send his kids to college.

Ahh..maybe you're right, the scourge of the earth is Ron Gettlefinger and his union minions, the devil incarnate if ever there was one.

[crokett]

Ahh..maybe you're right, the scourge of the earth is Ron Gettlefinger and his union minions, the devil incarnate if ever there was one.

Nobody is objecting to the salary the union bosses make. They are just pointing out that those people have a vested interest in protecting those salaries.

The UAW is not the sole cause but a good part of it. Are they being vilified unfairly by the Big Three? Some, but not entirely. Could the Three have said 'no' to some of the contracts 20 years ago and risked a strike? Yes. Could they have been better at building what people wanted to buy? Yes. That said, a reason they concentrated on the higher-margin vehicles such as trucks and SUVs was they have a higher cost burden built into each vehicle they sell since they have to support all of these retirees and people who are sitting around not doing anything. That last was a result of the contracts negotiated in the 80s and was a concession by the automakers in return for the unions allowing increased automation at the plants.

There are a lot of people who buy cars based on which model gives them the features they want at the best price. I am one of them. I drive a Vibe instead of a Matrix not because it is a Pontiac but because when all was said and done after the financing it cost ~ 1000.00 less. If you have higher burden rate on your product than your compeitors, you have to charge a higher price or figure out a way to produce it more cheaply. However, this only goes so far and eventually you run out of ways to drop the price.

[cgallery]

Do you really think that the success or failure of three of the largest manufacturing concerns in the whole of the United States falls to whether Joe Bluecollar and his union bosses accept a wage cut? YES You really think but for the Union, Detroit would be blessed with record profits and all would be right in the world? Not too far off the mark. And you also think Gettelfinger, one man, controls the fate of the United States since without this bail-out, if the auto companies go out of business in any way shape or form, that we're going from recession to depression where 1 in 12 to 1 iin 14 jobs is tied to the auto industry? I cannot discount the possibility. One man, little stinking Gettlefinger? Cuz if so, he's more powerful than Obama, Bush and everyone other politician combined. Well, we didn't end up here because the union leaders are powerless.

And you think his approx $160K salary is outrageous when he is the head of a 500K member organization that regularly negotiates multi-hundred million dollar contracts with some of the toughest and largest companies on the planet? No, I don't care about his salary. You don't think that, in perspective, his salary, which is probably equal to the starting salary in one of the big 3's legal or accounting department might actually be the biggest bargain of the century? Paying any amount to get a sharp stick in the eye is no bargain. And you think that Gettlefinger is risking the livlihood of 500K members, the economy, and the great american tradition of Detroit Steel for a whopping buck-sixty a year. No, I just think he is misguided.. You haven't been able to get rich off a buck-sixty since 1990, but he's gonna destroy the world for this? Likely he doesn't realize he is about to screw the pooch. Live nicely, sure, risk the world to protect your buck-sixty? right, and I saw pigs flying the other night. Well then they weren't Union pigs, cause union pigs don't fly at night.

And you don't think it odd that no conditions on pay cuts for rank and file workers was ever attached to the bank bailouts? They don't need to be, those can be cut at will. Or that they were never asked to submit a turnaround plan for their industries? The only successful turnaround plan requires getting concessions from the union, anything else is meaningless. And it was okay that the Union never got an extra non-contractual bump when times were good and profits made, but when times were bad and profits lost, its more than okay to take a non-contractual pay cut? You can't have your cake, and eat it, too. Unions don't get non-contractual anything, because they don't give non-contractual anything. I mean, with all the degrees and intelligence and power that Detroit and its lawyers, accountants, economists, and other people have, it is only natural that the salvation of the entire auto industry falls on Joe Bluecollar? Right, couldn't have said it better, no amount of intelligence can overcome this sort of stubborness. The one guy who had absolutely nothing to do with the economy, the bailout package, the chioce of cars detroit made, the advertising detroit cooked up, etc. How dare he make enought to afford a home, two cars, and send his kids to college.

Ahh..maybe you're right, the scourge of the earth is Ron Gettlefinger and his union minions, the devil incarnate if ever there was one. I don't think he is evil, just misguided.

Listen, I'm actually pro union. But not this kind of nonsense. I'm being asked, as a taxpayer, to save the big three. I'm willing to suck it up, to a degree. But everyone else coming to the table is gonna have to suck it up, too. And that includes the union.

So far, the union is saying they are unwilling to compromise. That's fine. But don't ask for my money, then. As what you're asking for is a union bailout, not a big three bailout. And my charity dollars can be put to better use.

[radhak]

Do you really think that ...

430752, somebody riled you up real good - but it was not here; you are pretty steamed up, aren't you? I rarely see such fiery speeches in this forum.

A union leader is not more or less powerful than the other industry leaders; but like any other leader, he needs to keep in mind his primary job - whether he's earning $70K as a school principal, a $160K as a union head, or a CEO earning millions. This guy's primary task is not just protecting pay-levels, but also ensuring job security for union members. If he's not able to get his head around the latter, then the former becomes moot.

An auto-worker's job cannot be compared with a financial analyst, but only with another at a similar auto manufacturer. If Toyota is able to do better as a company, then there are bound to be comparisons, and he'd better be able to get with the program.

This whole thread is about commiserating with the Joe Bluecollar, unless you see it otherwise; it's just a pity that that s/he has a leader who seems to be clueless.

You seem to indicate Gettlefinger is paid below grade; I don't think so, and neither does he : he's not complained all this while! And this is not the time to start.

The UAW generally gets bad press; you could go the conspiracy route and see villains in shadows, or you can step back and think - maybe there's a reason. Just as the CEO who refuses to work for a nominal $1 is vilified (why? isn't he justified to expect compensation?), tersely dismissing pay-cuts can only invite brickbats. He's only playing to the gallery (of voting members), but it's ultimately a counter-productive strategy.

At the end of all this, if (when) the 3 become 2 or even 1, thousands of jobs will be lost, but not his. He'd still be around, and will be able to boast that he never allowed pay-cuts, and I am sure will be re-elected on the basis of that. The fired workers? Aah, well, they only hear platitudes like that's life as they go around rebuilding ruined lives.

[havighurst]

I am a UAW member (not in the auto industry). While I do not agree with some of the union postions, such as keeping bad employees, I am far more concerned with the casual attitude that seems to be overly stated in the media that "X" employee earns too much. Does anyone really think that they themselves are overpaid? There seems to be a push to reduce wages and eliminate retirement benefits for many industries. I agree that a little less pay is better than no pay, but to what end? Where does it stop? Who will be left when it happens to you?

[radhak]

I am a UAW member (not in the auto industry). While I do not agree with some of the union postions, such as keeping bad employees, I am far more concerned with the casual attitude that seems to be overly stated in the media that "X" employee earns too much. Does anyone really think that they themselves are overpaid? There seems to be a push to reduce wages and eliminate retirement benefits for many industries. I agree that a little less pay is better than no pay, but to what end? Where does it stop? Who will be left when it happens to you?

valid point, but with no good answers.

look, salary cuts are bad; unions are good. my company has announced that almost 10% of us will lose jobs in Jan; you can imagine the holiday spirits that generates in a work-place. I wish there was somebody up there talking for me; then, even if I got canned I'd have the satisfaction of knowing somebody tried.

but this is something new : the company fails, and asks the general public to shore it up. so the demands against that help should not be surprising. if your company is going liquid, how can you still expect full pay? not that it's your fault, but then it's not society's either.

as for overpaid, you are right - I am underpaid . I only hope somebody above me realizes that when they make that list!

[rcp612]

Since I've laid off employees, cut hours on other employees, cut back on ALL expenses, and taken about a 22% hit on my own salary, with a constant worry that my job is still in jepordy, why should I supply another company my hard-earned cash to make sure they can continue to build automobiles that I and, none of my employees can afford?
My company depends on good, sound business practices to stay alive, and all our employees know that what we've done in the past, and, for the future, is for their good.
I, for one, feel that the big 3 need to look into their own problems and fix them instead of taking the "new" political view that "no one is responsible".

[Ed62]

I have been a member of the USWA since 1955. So I'm not anti-union. Having said that, I think we're heading towards a depression. Everybody is going to have to give up something, not just the auto industry. Will we like it? No. But we'll either reluctantly give up things or we will be forced into bread lines. I'm predicting the union will give in to the requests, and the money will become available. I, for one, am glad the money is not being given freely. The companies and the unions should show their willingness to co-operate.

I consider myself an independent, always splitting my vote. So politics has nothing to do with what I think is best for the country. It's more common sense.

Ed