CO2 pellet guns?

[Jeffrey Schronce]

On the issue of .22 v 9mm v. .45 (ie control of shot versus damage of shot), as well as expanding bullets, our friends in Quantico (FBI) wrote up a very decent little paper on that, as well as the concepts of detering attacks with force. cgallery, and other interested in the topic, I would highly suggest reading it. Pretty short but really hits home with the purpose of firing a gun at another human.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

[schloff]

[QUote

If this you, then get a good strong door on your bedroom and keep your cell phone next to you to call the police. I suggest cellular, as some really bad boys cut your phone lines prior to entering your house,[/QUOTE]

Ted Nugent (love him or hate him), said that 911 is the cleanup crew for the slowest trigger finger.

I believe he was right. We are a country founded on basic principals, one being self reliance. I can't count on, nor do I expect a police man to protect my family in a situation like this. They are noble and brave men, but I can't expect them to be able to respond to my crisis in a timely matter. It's a matter of logistics, not will.

[LCHIEN]

just for comparison - some typical values found on the web.

.45 cal M1911A1, 230 grains, Muzzle vel = 830 fps, energy = ~358 ft. lbs

9mm Luger, muzzle vel = 1155 fps, energy = ~341 ft.lbs

.22LR bulllet, 40 grains, muzzle vel = 1150 fps, energy = ~116 ft lbs

.177 pellet, 8 grains, vel = 1000 fps (spring air rifle), energy = ~16 ft lbs

.177 pellet, 8 grains, vel = 450 fps (CO2 pistol), energy = ~4 ft lbs.

unless you can put that pistol pellet thru his eye socket it's doubtful you're going to kill an intruder in real time.

[maxparot]

just for comparison - some typical values found on the web.

.45 cal M1911A1, 230 grains, Muzzle vel = 830 fps, energy = ~358 ft. lbs

9mm Luger, muzzle vel = 1155 fps, energy = ~341 ft.lbs

.22LR bulllet, 40 grains, muzzle vel = 1150 fps, energy = ~116 ft lbs

.177 pellet, 8 grains, vel = 1000 fps (spring air rifle), energy = ~16 ft lbs

.177 pellet, 8 grains, vel = 450 fps (CO2 pistol), energy = ~4 ft lbs.

unless you can put that pistol pellet thru his eye socket it's doubtful you're going to kill an intruder in real time.

You wouldn't happen to have the stats on my example a 22 short maybe 30 grain say from a 5" barrel and a .22 teflon coated precision pellet at 1200 fps?
I willing to bet they'd be closer in energy than anyone expects. But still a poor self defense weapon.

[Hellrazor]

I keep the first mag of my .45 loaded with Glaser Safety Slugs, at home. Outside, well things are a bit different

BTW, where'd you get the Talons. Haven't seen them in NY in years.

I bought the Black Talons when they announced they were going to stop selling them because of how well they performed. I got the last box off the shelf at the local gun shop. I also have a box or 2 of the SXT, which are basicly the same bullet except they are missing the black coating.

[cabinetman]

For the ultimate stopping power, I recommend the 105mm recoilless rifle.
.

[LCHIEN]

You wouldn't happen to have the stats on my example a 22 short maybe 30 grain say from a 5" barrel and a .22 teflon coated precision pellet at 1200 fps?
I willing to bet they'd be closer in energy than anyone expects. But still a poor self defense weapon.

wikipedia says
22 short, 29 grain from a rifle does 830 fps and does about 44 ft-lbs of muzzle energy but then it says from a rifle the standard 29grain load does 1045 fps delivering 70 ft-lbs.
So its still quite a bit more than a hot 1200 fps pellet rifle which would do around ... 24 ft-lbs.

.44 Magnum - ~1000 ft lbs.

Here's a good comparison page:
http://www.genitron.com/Ammunition/Ammo.html

[maxparot]

wikipedia says
22 short, 29 grain from a rifle does 830 fps and does about 44 ft-lbs of muzzle energy but then it says from a rifle the standard 29grain load does 1045 fps delivering 70 ft-lbs.
So its still quite a bit more than a hot 1200 fps pellet rifle which would do around ... 24 ft-lbs.

From the numbers you have I say I'm not to far off there would be a considerable loss of velocity and muzzle energy with a short barrel length using the 22 short in a pistol with a 5" barrel may render the round no more effective than the hot air rifle and the accuracy would have to go to the rifle.

[JimD]

The FBI article is interesting from multiple standpoints including:

They state if you know you will be in a battle, you need something other than a pistol. Pistols are for carrying when you do not know you need a weapon.

Knockdown power is a myth. Only hits to the central nervous system are reliably incapacitating. Only other incapacitating hit is to cause enough blood loss the body shuts down and that does not happen quickly - 10-15 seconds at best.

They really like penetration on the theory that you do not know where you will hit and you have to get to something vital. They recommend no less than 12 inches. They do not recommend expanding bullets in a pistol (because they won't penetrate 12 inches and they do not think the temporary cavity is very important).

Even a solid 22 bullet from a rifle won't penetrate 12 inches of muscle - I've tried in wet newspaper which is a reasonable simulation of muscle tissue from what I've read - and its more like 6 to 8 inches. I doubt any 9mm will make it either. I did not read the article real close, however, and I do not know if they are talking muscle tissue or ballistic gelletin. The latter is easier to penetrate. Expanding bullets from my 30-06 go from about 12 or 13 inches (150 grain) to 19 inches (180 grain Nosler Partition) into wet newspaper. I think the kind of penetration the FBI is talking about is 357s, 10mms, and 44 magnums with reasonable barrel length. Maybe a 45. All with solid bullets.

I do not agree with everything they are saying but I think the vast majority of it is very accurate.

Jim

[Sam Conder]

They state if you know you will be in a battle, you need something other than a pistol. Pistols are for carrying when you do not know you need a weapon.

I am currently reading "Beyond Band of Brothers" by Major Dick Winters. In the book he makes reference that he, unlike other officers, never stopped earring his M1 in favor of only a handgun. In addition to being poorly armed, he felt he was also more easily identified as an officer (and therefore a target of snipers!) if he ran around the battlefield wielding only a .45 automatic.

If you enjoy war memoirs, "Beyond Band of Brothers" is excellent.

[maxparot]

The FBI article is interesting from multiple standpoints including:

They state if you know you will be in a battle, you need something other than a pistol. Pistols are for carrying when you do not know you need a weapon.

Knockdown power is a myth. Only hits to the central nervous system are reliably incapacitating. Only other incapacitating hit is to cause enough blood loss the body shuts down and that does not happen quickly - 10-15 seconds at best.

They really like penetration on the theory that you do not know where you will hit and you have to get to something vital. They recommend no less than 12 inches. They do not recommend expanding bullets in a pistol (because they won't penetrate 12 inches and they do not think the temporary cavity is very important).

Even a solid 22 bullet from a rifle won't penetrate 12 inches of muscle - I've tried in wet newspaper which is a reasonable simulation of muscle tissue from what I've read - and its more like 6 to 8 inches. I doubt any 9mm will make it either. I did not read the article real close, however, and I do not know if they are talking muscle tissue or ballistic gelletin. The latter is easier to penetrate. Expanding bullets from my 30-06 go from about 12 or 13 inches (150 grain) to 19 inches (180 grain Nosler Partition) into wet newspaper. I think the kind of penetration the FBI is talking about is 357s, 10mms, and 44 magnums with reasonable barrel length. Maybe a 45. All with solid bullets.

I do not agree with everything they are saying but I think the vast majority of it is very accurate.

Jim

That sounds like the FBI article I read 10-15 years ago but there are a few other research papers that go along with it that make for interesting reading. They study the effect of high velocity bullets penetration vs high mass bullets organ damage. basically states that a bullet can go through a person and not cause enough damage to even slow them down significantly whereas a high mass round at slower velocity imparts more energy does more damage and incapacitates faster.(other than a central nervous system shot)
The other research is the first round take down data that has been collected by police and FBI for a number of years. I believe the winner on that article is the 45 acp followed by the 40 sw, 357 mag, 9mm and 38 special, 380 acp. these rounds are the ones used most by police agencies. Other rounds like the 44 mag may do as well but because of not being standard policy rounds the data doesn't have a large enough statistical base but from the data that does exist we can see that the 9mm, 38 special and even a 380 acp are nearly in a dead heat.
Police agencies in the US had adopted the 9mm during the late 1980's through 1990s because of the higher number of rounds in a 9mm auto but because of the first round takedown data and great number of richocets using the 9mm they have been switching to 40sw and 45 acp weapons.