another tragic story in the news

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  • scorrpio
    Veteran Member
    • Dec 2005
    • 1566
    • Wayne, NJ, USA.

    #31
    Originally posted by LarryG
    The length of time the train was stopped is irrelevant. What if the train had been stopped there for a Texas-legal nine minutes? For five minutes? One minute? Eighteen-point-three seconds?
    Train could be in motion for all we care. They would probably still fail to see or hear it. Except if train was moving, all six would probably be dead.

    Comment

    • vaking
      Veteran Member
      • Apr 2005
      • 1428
      • Montclair, NJ, USA.
      • Ryobi BT3100-1

      #32
      Originally posted by LarryG
      Two further thoughts:

      The length of time the train was stopped is irrelevant. What if the train had been stopped there for a Texas-legal nine minutes? For five minutes? One minute? Eighteen-point-three seconds? How would that have changed anything?

      If the parents do try to sue the railroad, wouldn't that provide some insights into the kind of parenting these kids may have received? Seems to me it just might.
      I voted for "Jay Keller's fault" but I really meant the choice that Loring mentioned but did not make available - Darwin's law. Dividing fault between parents and kids does not make sense. Parents or kids - those kids were not the "fittest" to survive.
      I put no blame on the railroad for several reasons. Any driver should always expect an obstacle on the road - from pothole to fallen tree or a deer. Speed of the car should always be linked to visibility. A railroad crossing is a place to slowdown, not to go airborne. Kids obviously knew of the crossing and intended to misuse it. BTW - noticing the train (even dark) 25 feet away from it with 6 people in the car looks too short to me. Either those kids were not paying attention to the road at all or were going without lights (in a stolen car to avoid police maybe). Length of time the train was there and any railroad regulations to that effect are irrelevant. A train (or car) parked illegally may create a parking violation but not a moving one. It is not a reason for criminal liability.
      Underage kids stealing cars for a joy ride, inviting friends to join, parents of kids placing the blame on railroad next day after the event - divide the blame between those two groups any way you want - Darwin's law.
      Alex V

      Comment

      • Thom2
        Resident BT3Central Research Ass.
        • Jan 2003
        • 1786
        • Stevens, PA, USA.
        • Craftsman 22124

        #33
        Okay, I actually sat down and read this whole thread. I'm going to have to side with Adele here regarding some aspects of the parenting involved.

        I have a 10 year old daughter that absolutely breaks my heart with her lying and stealing and sneaking. She exhibits a lot of behavorial traits of her natural mother. The natural mother is practically non-existant in the picture. but my wife has been "Mom" since around 2 years old.

        We absolutely DO NOT TOLERATE the behavior and certainly never taught it, yet my daughter continues to drive us to wits end trying to deal with the issues.

        There was a time when I honestly felt that behavior was a "learned trait" and it caused me to beat myself up a lot for things that I seem to have no control over. After years of dealing with this, I am finally convinced that behavior can indeed be hereditary to some degree. All I can do is try to teach my daughter the best I can and accept her choices as life goes on.

        Now in regards to the accident, it was 3:30am, our kids (I have step daughters too) had curfews and were in bed at a certain time ... but C'MON ... there is no way that I could tell you if they had snuck out at 2:00 in the morning (and I'm fairly certain they have). Were the kids in the accident left to roam the streets all night? ... I didn't get that impression from the article.

        The kids (at least the driver) obviously knew he shouldn't be driving as his parents hid their keys and he still made a decision to steal a vehicle.

        Speeding ... I assume he was speeding if he intended to 'get some air'

        The railroad? .. c'mon ... the kid's already got 3 points against him, how was this the railroad's fault? This could have happened at a bridge, a bend in the road, anywhere. The railroad was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

        Most of my blame would have to lie on the kid's themselves. While I'm defending the parents to some extent, please don't think that I'm saying they shouldn't be held accountable if circumstances warrant such. My point is that sometimes even the children of good parents take a wrong turn in life, I think the parents should have the opportunity to present themselves to a judge or jury before I could really start pointing the finger at them, giving what I know from a copy of a newspaper article.
        Last edited by Thom2; 06-18-2007, 02:30 PM.
        If it ain't broke.. don't fix it!!!... but you can always 'hop it up'
        **one and only purchaser of a BT3C official thong**

        Comment

        • TheRic
          Veteran Member
          • Jun 2004
          • 1912
          • West Central Ohio
          • bt3100

          #34
          As for raising kids I do feel that hereditary plays a part. I have 4 step kids, two different fathers, same mother. First two, twins, never knew their father (committed suicide when they were a few months old). They were mostly raised by the father (and mom of course) of the second two kids. From about age 1 thru age 18. The second two are bad, misbehaved, don't listen to authority, run ins with the law, etc, (just like their father). He (and their mom) raised these kids from birth until about ages 16 & 14. My wife (their mother) mentions often "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree" I chime in every-once in a while "It didn't even bounce or roll"

          As for the train being at fault, as was said several times before, it doesn't mater if it was stopped for a split second, or moving. If they had gone airborne and hit a maple tree on the other side would the maple tree have been at fault? Around here we have many railroad crossing with no lights, no arms, etc. Warning signs that there are railroad tracks ahead, but that is it.

          With the event planned for days, and them having to steal another vehicle because the first broke down, tells me they were not going to be happy until they caused some damage. If just stealing a car was all they were going to do (don't mean to sound like that is minor). They wouldn't have stolen the second one after it broke down. I would not be surprised to hear that they ran over / hit things earlier, took the car offroading at hight speeds, etc. Probably damaged the first car, thus it broke down.
          Ric

          Plan for the worst, hope for the best!

          Comment

          • LCHIEN
            Super Moderator
            • Dec 2002
            • 21734
            • Katy, TX, USA.
            • BT3000 vintage 1999

            #35
            Originally posted by The Ric
            As for raising kids I do feel that hereditary plays a part. I have 4 step kids, two different fathers, same mother. First two, twins, never knew their father (committed suicide when they were a few months old). They were mostly raised by the father (and mom of course) of the second two kids. From about age 1 thru age 18. The second two are bad, misbehaved, don't listen to authority, run ins with the law, etc, (just like their father). He (and their mom) raised these kids from birth until about ages 16 & 14. My wife (their mother) mentions often "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree" I chime in every-once in a while "It didn't even bounce or roll"
            so are the 1st two kids great kids or like the 2nd two? and are they like their biological father?
            Loring in Katy, TX USA
            If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
            BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

            Comment

            • Adele
              Established Member
              • Nov 2003
              • 391
              • Midway, KY, USA.

              #36
              Originally posted by Thom2
              I'm going to have to side with Adele here

              Thom,

              I have it in writing you agreed with me on something.

              Adele

              Comment

              • TheRic
                Veteran Member
                • Jun 2004
                • 1912
                • West Central Ohio
                • bt3100

                #37
                Originally posted by LCHIEN
                so are the 1st two kids great kids or like the 2nd two? and are they like their biological father?
                Sorry for not being clear on that. The first two are fine. A little rough around the edges but they are still young. I'll say they have a lot of their father in them, from what my wife tells me. They definitely have his musical talent. She has a lovely voice, he can play several instrument very well. They say the father could listen to a song once, maybe a section of it twice and play the song just like the original. I never knew the father of the first two.

                I know the father of the second two too well. Longest he ever kept a job was about 18 months. I know of two different summers he lived out of a tent at a camp site, couldn't afford to live in a house. But he could afford to spend time at the local bars every night. He was given an Honorable discharge from the Navy on the condition he never ever (Never and Ever underlined with several lines) join any military branch again (that is what it said on his discharge papers).
                Ric

                Plan for the worst, hope for the best!

                Comment

                • mn95616
                  Forum Newbie
                  • Jun 2007
                  • 16

                  #38
                  As cold as this may sound....

                  I am glad that it was the kids that died and not some innocent family who just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. What if it was a family on the other side of the track who got hit? I have seen too many incident where the innocent victims die and where the drunk driver (wreckless driver) walk away.

                  To me - the fault is between the kids and the parents. The % is based on factors that I don't know - such as the parental skills. Also - I thought it was ludicrous that one of the parents didn't blame the driver but blamed the RR company.

                  Comment

                  • MilDoc

                    #39
                    My view as a pediatrician with over 30 years in the saddle, 10's of thousands of kids - anyone ever see The Bad Seed? Lots of studies now show, including many twin studies where twins were reared apart, that a lot (? most, 50%, who knows) of behavior and personality is indeed inborn. Try as you might, you "might" change some. But not all. Are there "born" sociopaths? I believe so. Bundy comes to mind.

                    You can be the best parent (and there are many that are not), and still raise a serial killer. You can be the worst parent (and I've seen many) and still raise a saint.

                    Best advice? Do the best you can, say a few prayers, sacrifice a toad under the full moon, cross your fingers - and hope for the best.

                    Adele is right.

                    If you and your spouse have the "right" combination of genes you have a great chance of raising the saint.

                    If not, well ...

                    But, genetics isn't all there is either. You can influence and maybe change behavior. Maybe. All you can really do is your best.

                    And sometimes it just doesn't work.

                    Comment

                    • LinuxRandal
                      Veteran Member
                      • Feb 2005
                      • 4890
                      • Independence, MO, USA.
                      • bt3100

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Thom2
                      I have a 10 year old daughter that absolutely breaks my heart with her lying and stealing and sneaking. She exhibits a lot of behavorial traits of her natural mother. The natural mother is practically non-existant in the picture. but my wife has been "Mom" since around 2 years old.

                      There was a time when I honestly felt that behavior was a "learned trait" and it caused me to beat myself up a lot for things that I seem to have no control over. After years of dealing with this, I am finally convinced that behavior can indeed be hereditary to some degree. All I can do is try to teach my daughter the best I can and accept her choices as life goes on.

                      Now in regards to the accident, it was 3:30am, our kids (I have step daughters too) had curfews and were in bed at a certain time ... but C'MON ... there is no way that I could tell you if they had snuck out at 2:00 in the morning (and I'm fairly certain they have). Were the kids in the accident left to roam the streets all night? ... I didn't get that impression from the article.

                      The kids (at least the driver) obviously knew he shouldn't be driving as his parents hid their keys and he still made a decision to steal a vehicle.

                      Speeding ... I assume he was speeding if he intended to 'get some air'

                      The railroad? .. c'mon ... the kid's already got 3 points against him, how was this the railroad's fault? This could have happened at a bridge, a bend in the road, anywhere. The railroad was just in the wrong place at the wrong time..
                      Originally posted by MilDoc
                      My view as a pediatrician with over 30 years in the saddle, 10's of thousands of kids - anyone ever see The Bad Seed? Lots of studies now show, including many twin studies where twins were reared apart, that a lot (? most, 50%, who knows) of behavior and personality is indeed inborn. Try as you might, you "might" change some. But not all. Are there "born" sociopaths? I believe so. Bundy comes to mind.

                      You can be the best parent (and there are many that are not), and still raise a serial killer. You can be the worst parent (and I've seen many) and still raise a saint.


                      But, genetics isn't all there is either. You can influence and maybe change behavior. Maybe. All you can really do is your best.

                      And sometimes it just doesn't work.
                      Getting a little close for comfort here as by family, I've been told I didn't even have the right to exist.

                      Because of what I know and learned (and kept away from my siblings), I struggle with the whole genetics verse upbringing thing. It permiates a lot of my actions/reactions to a lot of situations, and has caused my family to view me as things I am not (because they don't know causes for different actions). Unfortunately this is the lesser of three evils. I know QUITE well, that one is responsible for their own actions. The first lesson I learned as a child was, you can never trust anybody, only yourself. The first adendum, especially not family.
                      That being said, I can say I learned a lot of my values, from All in the Family. As they showed that there was always at least two sides, and generally, people have an agenda. So even though my parents taught me a lot, I always (and still do) try to figure out where they/you/anyone are coming from, and what is their angle. That being said, as a parent, you accept the responsibility for your actions (HAVING the kid) and take financial responsiblity (legally, the parents bare fiscal responsibility), so the parents do bare some here (but couldn't make our own figures). If you don't agree, with that, you make the kids either wards of the state, or put them up for adoption (and I've seen that happen when a kid got too hard to handle, and tried to abuse the grandparents that raised them).
                      Now, even if your a dumb(censored), since I don't know the location and all the particulars of the area of the crash, I had to go by train tracks that I grew up around. I've been in rural areas, where the train's weren't lit, but if there were lights, you could see them from over 1/4" mile away. I would have liked to see a diagram of the area to figure out what percentage I think was the fault of the railroad. Wasn't an option so I couldn't just say 0 to 3%
                      Even in the genetics verses environment argument an environment created years ago, can and does have an effect to this day.
                      She couldn't tell the difference between the escape pod, and the bathroom. We had to go back for her.........................Twice.

                      Comment

                      • LCHIEN
                        Super Moderator
                        • Dec 2002
                        • 21734
                        • Katy, TX, USA.
                        • BT3000 vintage 1999

                        #41
                        Originally posted by LinuxRandal
                        ...
                        Now, even if your a dumb(censored), since I don't know the location and all the particulars of the area of the crash, I had to go by train tracks that I grew up around. I've been in rural areas, where the train's weren't lit, but if there were lights, you could see them from over 1/4" mile away. I would have liked to see a diagram of the area to figure out what percentage I think was the fault of the railroad. Wasn't an option so I couldn't just say 0 to 3%
                        .
                        http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...&t=h&z=16&om=1

                        The crash ocurred on the tracks near Fleming and East Archer streets.
                        You can see in the aerial photo the tracks run from about SSW to NNE (you can switch to the map view, zoom, etc., too)

                        If you zoom all the way in, there's a scale showing what 100 ft is on the view.
                        There's a high-voltage tower, looks to be 50-75 feet from the tracks.
                        Remember, the driver slammed on the brakes just 25 feet from the tracks.
                        For another comparison, railroad track rails are around 4'8" apart.
                        So 25' is very short!
                        Last edited by LCHIEN; 06-19-2007, 01:21 PM.
                        Loring in Katy, TX USA
                        If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
                        BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

                        Comment

                        • LinuxRandal
                          Veteran Member
                          • Feb 2005
                          • 4890
                          • Independence, MO, USA.
                          • bt3100

                          #42
                          Originally posted by LCHIEN
                          http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...&t=h&z=16&om=1

                          The crash ocurred on the tracks near Fleming and East Archer streets.
                          You can see in the aerial photo the tracks run from about SSW to NNE (you can switch to the map view, zoom, etc., too)

                          If you zoom all the way in, there's a scale showing what 100 ft is on the view.
                          There's a high-voltage tower, looks to be 50-75 feet from the tracks.
                          Remember, the driver slammed on the brakes just 25 feet from the tracks.
                          For another comparison, railroad track rails are around 4'8" apart.
                          So 25' is very short!

                          Thanks for the image. I know exactly how short 25' is.
                          With lights, since they were going eastbound, any one of the passengers, could have seen the train and either tried to reason, or struggle to wreck the vehicle BEFORE it went into and under the train. One thing to take your chances wrecking in a ditch, another to be beheaded.

                          Parents, allowing KID's without jobs, cellphones, so they can be used to cheat at tests, talk at night (passed curfew), etc. That is just niavity (and part of the parents fault).

                          Anybody who steals a car from a auto repair shop, is an idiot. They tried to steal a deputy sherriffs personal vehicle, from my mechanics garage, with a big FUEL PUMP OUT, sign on the dash and steering wheel (deputy had it towed down there when the shop was closed)

                          The survivors need to be charged with ,treaspass, Burgulary, two counts grand theft auto, (depending on the case) either second degree murder, or vehicular manslaughter (each count), attempted murder (on each that survived), violation of city/county curfew, speeding, etc. (every charge)
                          They need to be sentenced, and part of the punishment should be maintaining the graves, paying for the funeral's (paying thier parents back, who will loose everything), paying for the cars, repainting the car thief signs, I would have them post at the crashsite. Gonna stop ranting there,
                          She couldn't tell the difference between the escape pod, and the bathroom. We had to go back for her.........................Twice.

                          Comment

                          • cgallery
                            Veteran Member
                            • Sep 2004
                            • 4503
                            • Milwaukee, WI
                            • BT3K

                            #43
                            Originally posted by MilDoc
                            My view as a pediatrician with over 30 years in the saddle, 10's of thousands of kids - anyone ever see The Bad Seed? Lots of studies now show, including many twin studies where twins were reared apart, that a lot (? most, 50%, who knows) of behavior and personality is indeed inborn. Try as you might, you "might" change some. But not all. Are there "born" sociopaths? I believe so. Bundy comes to mind.

                            You can be the best parent (and there are many that are not), and still raise a serial killer. You can be the worst parent (and I've seen many) and still raise a saint.
                            Lots of interesting points made by MilDoc and others.

                            We sorta need another poll about raising kids (opinions on corporal punishment, extreme control, hands-off, leave it to spouse, etc.).

                            I know that, if my kids were in the habit of sneaking out at night and joy riding, I'd literally chain them to their beds. There would be no chance of them causing a car wreck. Dying in their sleep if the house catches fire maybe, but no car wrecks in the middle of the night.

                            I'd also point out that, among the families I routinely see, it seems that parents either have control over none of their kids or all of their kids. I don't see much middle ground. There are exceptions, but only enough to prove the rule. Were the kids born w/o the control gene, or were they raised that way?

                            That is easy to answer because you get to witness the parents attempt to control the kids. Most of the time the parents say nothing as the kids climb the walls, or make a plaintiff wail "stop that, be good." Where is the drill sergeant?

                            When was the last time you saw a parent really jump down a kid's throat in public? It is rare, because good parents don't need to. Their kids already know the code and walk the line.

                            I'm not unsympathetic to parents that notice differences between adopted and biological children, either. But I would explain most of that away as saying that we aren't robots. We aren't all going to be a perfect reflection of our parents (biological or not). We're looking at the 90-10 or 80-20 rule here. Sure, maybe your adopted son/daughter refuses to do homework and clean their room. But they draw the line at sneaking out at night and joy-riding. Good 'nuff.
                            Last edited by cgallery; 06-19-2007, 07:37 PM.

                            Comment

                            • JR
                              The Full Monte
                              • Feb 2004
                              • 5636
                              • Eugene, OR
                              • BT3000

                              #44
                              Kids' fault 100%. Obviously, I don't know the parents and can't know how the kids were raised.

                              Kids do the darndest things. It seems pretty clear that at least some of these kids sneaked out late at night. No matter how well raised, a good 12-year-old girl could easily be influenced by a bad 15-year-old boy. Anyone who thinks their parenting technique, perfect as it may be, is assured to keep this from happening, is not being realistic.

                              A bad 15-year-old boy is not necessarily a product of bad parenting. Sure, it's certainly possible. It's also possible for that boy to be very badly broken, mentally. He might even seem normal, charming, and bright, but still have deep-seated problems, driving him to this kind of behavior. Stern parenting can have no effect sometimes. A trip to juvie might not fix him up.

                              Once again, if think proper parenting will definitely solve these problems, you're mistaken. I'm not advocating that parents abdicate their responsibilities. I'm only pointing out that a parent could do everything perfectly at every step of the way, and the kid could still turn out wrong.

                              Human behavior is sometimes a very ugly thing even in otherwise wonderful circumstances.

                              JR
                              JR

                              Comment

                              • GRDavid
                                Forum Newbie
                                • Nov 2005
                                • 11
                                • Connecticut, USA.

                                #45
                                OP:

                                What percentage fault to you apply to the parent, the kids and the Railroad?

                                Fault for what? Their death? If so it's 100% the railroad's fault. There's two separate issues of responsibility here and one does not excuse the other.
                                Tell the same story with honor students on their way home an hour early from bible study 5 miles under the speed limit and look for the common denominator in both.
                                Social commentary, while it has its place, is just a little disconcerting as I see people divvying up percentages to dead.

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