another tragic story in the news

[LCHIEN]

Locally (Baytown, TX) there was an accident last Thursday morning that killd four kids and left two seriously hurt. They were aged 12 to 15.

The story as it unfolded was these 6 kids were riding in a jeep around 3:30 AM, they were going down a semi-rural road near their homes when they came to a train stopped on the RR tracks with signs but not guard arms or lights. They were evidently going at a high speed and the skid marks started 25 feet from the train. The car went mostly under the tank car except for the top half which was peeled back and killed the four kids in back; the two in front apperently ducked and their lives were spared (both in the hospital with injuries), the car continued under and ran off the road and into the ditch. The 14 y.o. bother of the 15 y.o. driver was one of those killed in the backseat.

The news story the next days has the father/uncle of two 12 YO girls killed publicly chewing out the railroad rep. He said it was unlike his girl to sneak out at night. The owner of the jeep was a local resident, they noticed the car missing at 4AM when they woke and called the police, spoke no english and had no auto insurance.

Turns out that the kids had planned this for days. The boy driving had a history of joy riding in first his parents then grandparent's cars until they took to hiding the keys every night. some other kids were invited but refused to go.

Anyway that night starting around midnight they stole two cars, this was the second because the 1st one brke down. One of the survivors said that the driver told the passengers that he was going to "catch some air" using the rise at the RR crossing to make the car airborne.

The train had been blocking the road for 33 mins. This was known to the resident's in the area that it happened frequently. Lights and crossing arm were planned for installation in 6 months.

my quick observation of contributing factors.
In TX you have to be 16 to get a learners permit and 17 to get a license. Underage driving
Stolen vehicles (2). Curfew, speeding,
train parked on road for long time, no lights, no reflectors,
several parents knew their kids liked to sneak out and joyride.


What's wrong with this story, is this just a normal application of Darwin's theory? Latest news report http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4896366.html

Quick poll: What percentage fault to you apply to the parent, the kids and the Railroad? (sorry for the limited choices)

[LinuxRandal]

Depending on HOW RURAL, I've seen the railroad put just lights at area's that are otherwise, not well lit, so you see that there is a train quite a distance away.

But while the parents do have to take some of the blame (it's part what you teach and preach), sometimes there are just bad kids. I've seen it before, and am seeing it again. One that even try's to beat his parents.

He better learn to be tough, cause he isn't smart, and is gonna end up in prison, if society is unlucky.

As for the cars, the owners should sue the 15 year olds parents for the cost.

I am not sure you want to know what I think should happen to the kid's.

[final_t]

"Turns out that the kids had planned this for days"

Kids, 100%. Voting for anything else is self-delusion.

[parnelli]

I almost picked 60/30/10, but when with 33/33/33. While the kids obviously are directly at fault, the railroad has to bear more than just a bit of the blame. It's one thing to not have lights or gates there, but clearly the cars should be marked with reflective tape or something...I think most of the ones I see around here have the alternating white red tape on them.

My take is that if this were a couple of 85 year old adults that were killed by running into an unlighted, unmarked train in the middle of the night that most everyone would be placing significant blame on the RR.

[LinuxRandal]

"Turns out that the kids had planned this for days"

Kids, 100%. Voting for anything else is self-delusion.

I started to vote that way, however, up to a point when the kids no longer accept parental input (or if they are damaged), how the parents spend time with the kids makes their values. Kid's who come from drag racing families, more apt to drag race, etc.

I almost picked 60/30/10, but when with 33/33/33. While the kids obviously are directly at fault, the railroad has to bear more than just a bit of the blame. It's one thing to not have lights or gates there, but clearly the cars should be marked with reflective tape or something...I think most of the ones I see around here have the alternating white red tape on them.

My take is that if this were a couple of 85 year old adults that were killed by running into an unlighted, unmarked train in the middle of the night that most everyone would be placing significant blame on the RR.

I think that would depend on the speed of the 85 year olds. If they had skid marks for 25', I would wonder too about them on backroads, and their ability to judge their driving.

[TheRic]

"Turns out that the kids had planned this for days"

Kids, 100%. Voting for anything else is self-delusion.

I agree with you on this. My wife thinks the kids should be up for premeditated murder on 4 counts, since they had planned this for days. At the minimum there should be 4 counts of vehicular homicide.

[backpacker85]

Wow....think I changed my choice 4 or 5 times before going 80/20 (kids/parents).

The only reason to include the 20% parents vs. 100% kids is because of the young ages of several of the kids. I would think at 12-13 years old, the parents should hold "some" responsibility for their actions.

Originally wanted to share some blame with the RR for having no lights, flagman, etc at a blocked crossing, but from what was stated about wanting to "get some air" at the crossing......take the train out of the equation completely, and there would possibly have been 6 fatalities rather than 4 after the jeep flew, crashed & rolled.

Again, just my .02

[cgallery]

I went 50/50 kids/parents. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

And I'm not saying this is a joy-riding tree. But if the tree doesn't know where the apples go at night, and hides its keys "so at least the apples aren't driving my car," well then, the tree is to blame, too.

[mpc]

80/20. Nothing to the railroad. One of the basic tenets of driving is speed limits are the LOWER of whatever is posted OR whatever is safe for conditions. I.e., doing 65mph on the freeway is legal... unless weather or traffic conditions say otherwise. Nobody would think 65mph is safe in a blinding snowstorm, right? Should the traffic department be required to replace all speed limit signs with 5mph limits on the freeway during snowstorms?

Same for the train. If you're driving faster than you and your headlights can see, it's your own fault. Trying to "catch air" is proof the driver was not paying attention to DRIVING. Had the train been marked with reflective tape, lights, or flares placed at blocked intersections then things might have turned out better... but I don't view the railroad as negligent. Yes, they could have done more but that doesn't mean they should have done more. Lots of folks want government to "don't limit my freedoms but protect me from my own stupidity and lack of common sense."

Parents share some blame too. Kids grow up with whatever rules, guidelines, and constraints are placed on them as youngsters. If a child shows signs of being problematic, saying "what's a parent to do?" is a lousy parental response.

mpc

[Uncle Cracker]

Also 50/50 kids-parents. Parents gotta know where their kids and cars are at 3:30 in the morning, and kids gotta have better sense. Can't fault the RR, because there are hundreds and hundreds of remote rural crossings, too many to light or otherwise automate, even if they could get power to them.

[cabinetman]

I would have to go 80% or more to the parents, 10% - 15% to the kids, and whatever remains to the RR. I've always felt that discipline has to be taught in the home. If it was taught in that home, and enforced, the accident may have never happened. These situations where the parents lose control and get over ridden by the children waited too long to try to teach them anything.

It's the same learning process as with animals. The younger you start and establish who is the boss makes for a learning process. These single mothers who wait until their 11 year old is 6' 2" and 220 lbs to teach discipline is in for a surprise.

In my own situation, my father established who was the boss very early in my life, and made me realize I would have to answer for my own choices. He also made a point to me that under all conditions I will know the difference between right and wrong, and if there was any question in my mind, consider the choice to be wrong.

[Bruce Cohen]

I'm really not too sure who's (other than the kid driving) at fault. But one thing I do know is that if the two boys do survive, they will have to live with this moment for the rest of their lives, whether or not they're prosecuted for their crimes (or their lack of common sense).

Don't get me wrong, I'm no bleeding heart liberal, but I firmly believe that parents, adults and teachers lack the ability to make kids aware of cause and effect, especially when it comes to possible life threating situations.

Bruce

And Loring, I'm surprised you included "the Keller troll" in this. Not because of what he is, but because of the seriousness of your poll.

[mac_daddy]

I didn't see blame to the owner's of the stolen Jeep. I guess this hasn't been picked up by FOX News.

[Ed62]

I couldn't put a percentage of blame on a case like this. It seems this is not the first time some of the kids have done things like this, so the parents have to get part of the blame.

I'm guessing it's illegal for a train to block a crossing for the length of time mentioned, but I don't think the RR gets any blame for what happened.

Even the most caring parents can have things like this happen with their kids, and IMHO, the kids have to get the lion's share of the blame.

Ed

[ragswl4]

Voted 50/50 parents and kids. Unless the parents are living in a total vacuum they have some sense of what their children are doing or are capable of doing.

If it were the 85 year old couple, driving legally in the middle of the night, hitting an unmarked, stalled train then 100% for the RR. But that's just not the case. I was vacillating between it all being the kids fault but I know as a parent, I had a pretty good idea what my kids were up to at that age. A parent has a responsibility to protect their children, even if the children don't like it. I don't believe the parents were doing that in this case.

I realize times have changed since I raised my children but were I a parent today, it would have been even more difficult for my kids to follow my rules, but they would have. So the parents shoulder part of the blame IMO.