Table saw alternatives in the future

[phi1l]

I'm pretty sure that a spring or solenoid alone would not retract the blade fast enough to prevent serious injury.
The brake grabs the blade destroying the teeth in order to use the blade's momentum to cause the retraction much more quickly than a spring could do by itself.

It seems like that would be the case, but I just did some BOE calculations & the potential energy in a 50Kg spring is in the same order of magnitude as the kinetic energy of a TS blade. So a spring retraction can not be ruled out on that basis alone. That doesn't mean it is feasible, of course, but it may be possible.

[vaking]

I've often wondered if the table saw itself would become obsolete and follow in the footsteps of the Radial Arm Saw. Between a router with a good edge guide and a track saw, is there anything that makes a table saw is essential?

I'm not arguing that these are any safer, just that there is nothing a table saw can do that can't be done by any other means.

I also have thoughts along these lines. I know 4 major types of large saws.
1. Miter saws (CMS or SCMS) excel at cross-cuts, miter cuts, bevel cuts and combinations of above.
2. Band saws are good for rip cuts and curved cuts.
3. Panel saw or track saw is good for sheet products.
4. Table saw is the most universal tool. It can do all of the above except curved cuts but it does not excel at anything. For any specific type of cut there is something better. In other words - it is a swiss army knife of big saws. I believe it is also the most dangerous of big saws.

I believe in the past few years table saw had made less progress than other types of big saws. We got very impressive sliding miter saws that had gained accuracy they did not have before. Panel saws made huge improvements. Modern band saws are looking interesting - they increased capacity while keeping size small for instance.
SawStop is probably the only recent innovation for table saws I can think of. I cannot think of any functional (vs safety) improvement since bessy fence.
It is possible that table saw is becoming less essential.

[Gator95]

While I agree with those saying the most important safety feature is between the ears... surely there are ways to make the job of cutting wood safer so that a momentary failure of that first line of defence won't result in a life-changing injury.

I'm more in favor of the sliding table approach to safety, where there is no need to get the motive force (your hand) anywhere near the blade than the sawstop approach. A sliding table also helps solve the kickback problem, not addressed at all by the sawstop approach. Disadvantage of course is machine size and cost.

[twistsol]

I've often wondered if the table saw itself would become obsolete and follow in the footsteps of the Radial Arm Saw. Between a router with a good edge guide and a track saw, is there anything that makes a table saw is essential?

I'm not arguing that these are any safer, just that there is nothing a table saw can do that can't be done by any other means.

[Stytooner]

The blade is being sacrificed to make sure it retracts under the table as fast as possible. I do not believe any attempts to do with solenoids/springs have any chance at all.

But most importantly - I do not understand the point of this topic alltogether. People who buy Sawstop today are prepared to pay few hundred dollars extra for the safety. Notice that if you are careful and you don't stick your fingers where they don't belong - nothing will happen to the blade even if you have a Sawstop. The extra money you pay upfront for the sawstop technology is like insurance. You pay it for the peace of mind to know that if you make a mistake - your saw will protect you anyway. If your sawstop actually triggers and destroys the blade - it means you just made that mistake and really stuck your fingers into the blade and the blade has been sacrificed to protect you. If you have just been proven an idiot (as in saw being idiot-proof) - do you really think $100 is too high a price to let you walk away with your fingers still attached after that?
Out of all the possible objections against Sawstop - this one is particularly silly in my opinion. So it sacrifices a blade to save a finger- it is worth it. Expensive blade is worth $100. If you think your finger is not worth that much - use blades that cost $20. You probably won't notice the difference anyway.

Solenoids, while fast acting, aren't as quick as the SS tech. Part of what makes it so fast is the blades own energy. You could use the blades energy with a solenoid, but you would have essentially the same product.
Stopping on another surface would not insure the blade stops spinning, though it might still retreat the same. If it were allowed to spin another 1/4 turn, it might be useless. Would 15 teeth of a 60 tooth blade cut through bone? Yep. The blades are mounted on an arbor. Not a mechanical connection, but only a friction connection. If the arbor were stopped instead, the blade would keep turning some just due to Gforces.
If there were a mechanical connection such as steel pins in special blades and the arbor were stopped, the blades pin holes would still likely enlarge due to the forces and likely still need replacing.
The teeth on the blade is the logical place to halt the spinning instantly. It is what makes it work so well.

I don't think there is a real issue trading a blade for a finger or two. I know some debate that as a down side, but buying a new blade is certainly better than the alternative. If one chose to use nice blades, I suspect they should be a little more careful.

[vaking]

I'm pretty sure that a spring or solenoid alone would not retract the blade fast enough to prevent serious injury.
The brake grabs the blade destroying the teeth in order to use the blade's momentum to cause the retraction much more quickly than a spring could do by itself.

The blade is being sacrificed to make sure it retracts under the table as fast as possible. I do not believe any attempts to do with solenoids/springs have any chance at all.

But most importantly - I do not understand the point of this topic alltogether. People who buy Sawstop today are prepared to pay few hundred dollars extra for the safety. Notice that if you are careful and you don't stick your fingers where they don't belong - nothing will happen to the blade even if you have a Sawstop. The extra money you pay upfront for the sawstop technology is like insurance. You pay it for the peace of mind to know that if you make a mistake - your saw will protect you anyway. If your sawstop actually triggers and destroys the blade - it means you just made that mistake and really stuck your fingers into the blade and the blade has been sacrificed to protect you. If you have just been proven an idiot (as in saw being idiot-proof) - do you really think $100 is too high a price to let you walk away with your fingers still attached after that?
Out of all the possible objections against Sawstop - this one is particularly silly in my opinion. So it sacrifices a blade to save a finger- it is worth it. Expensive blade is worth $100. If you think your finger is not worth that much - use blades that cost $20. You probably won't notice the difference anyway.

[Stytooner]

Whirlwind blade guard has that already, Bruce. It's a decent idea as well.

[Bruce Cohen]

Am I really slow (don't answer that), what about a safety that prevents the saw from starting is the guard and riving knife are not installed. I'm sure that there can be a way to make this type of safety work when doing dado cuts also.

Bruce

[mpc]

SawStop uses the blade's angular momentum to yank/rip it straight down when the metal slug is driven into the blade. A spring or solenoid trying to just pull the blade straight down would have a hard time matching that response rate.

However, if the blade was pulled backwards a little bit as it went down that would buy some time - pulling the blade away from typical direction fingers are traveling. Or instead of slamming the blade with a slug of metal an internal flywheel could be used instead: slam the slug into some other sacrificial rotating part (probably a lot cheaper than a blade!) to get that instant blade stoppage AND utilize the angular momentum energy to yank the blade downwards.

mpc

[LCHIEN]

Who ways you have to stop the blade? The same trigger technology that destroys the saw blade could be used to just retract the blade under the table surface without the destruction.

I'm pretty sure that a spring or solenoid alone would not retract the blade fast enough to prevent serious injury.
The brake grabs the blade destroying the teeth in order to use the blade's momentum to cause the retraction much more quickly than a spring could do by itself.

[Stytooner]

Who ways you have to stop the blade? The same trigger technology that destroys the saw blade could be used to just retract the blade under the table surface without the destruction.

I don't necessarily mean just using a blade brake, though that is one viable aid for safety. This is especially true with today's open blade design table saws.
It would be redundant though on a planer or enclosed type saw.

Future saws might not even have a circular blade or at least not just a table and would likely be called something else. Woodmill perhaps. Nano saw mill maybe.

Kickbacks could be addressed on new machines by using a riving knife. That is the single best feature implemented on circular saws in the last 100 years IMO. They just work. Are they 100%. Doubtful, but close. There will always be other ways to get injured. A riving knife works well in conjunction with a blade guard or cover. Is that 100%? Nope. Not hardly. Okay, how about with blade braking tech included. That a 100%? Good track record so far, but could not possibly exist without failure at some point.

No matter what you do to today's table saws, they could never be 100% safe. I think a better design that puts more distance between the operator and the blade is the answer really for the future. Incorporate some of the good features, but make them more like a production machine with production style safety switches.

Truthfully though, I am not sure we would ever see much progress in this area. The tablesaw is designed the way it is because it makes it so versatile for so many different type operations. Something like the planner style design would eliminate some of those capabilities.

I intended this thread to be like a think tank.
Some good ideas coming to the surface so far. Keep it up, guys.

[LinuxRandal]

As stated, elsewhere, Sawstop and Whirlwind, use different methods to obtain the goal of "protecting" the operator.

I started out, looking at the Woodmaster, prior to looking at tablesaws. I even went to the plant (local) and was given a demo. I still want one, but then it was out of budget.
Even with one, I have read about kickback with it. Although, it seems less likely (not impossible) that one would get their hands in one. You never know though. I know one person, who stuck his arms in a snow blower, to unclog it. A couple who have had tablesaw accidents (one mainly due to age and lack of mobility), and a person who got her arm stuck in a hydraulic press, that her foot was required to operate.

I use my Eurekazone more, because I can't afford a mistake. It seems safer to me in general. (still don't let your guard down) ALTHOUGH, I have had discussions with the owner, about some images where he cut in the air. Having helped others, who may have small children, that are unpredictable (either too small to know better, or just don't listen), you never know when/if they are going to try to get your attention, when your working.

I've looked at and use options. It is everyones individual responsibility to do that for themselves. Even IF the Sawstop technology were mandated, there are lots of old equipment out there (example, OWWM website). Only when customers decide with their wallets, will things change.

[phi1l]

There is more than one way to stop a blade.

Who ways you have to stop the blade? The same trigger technology that destroys the saw blade could be used to just retract the blade under the table surface without the destruction.

[Mr__Bill]

A practical suggestion for safety.

Just as a good table saw has a riving knife set inline with the blade, I suggest that a setup guide be in front of the blade, perfectly inline with the blade and as tall as the blade. The operator could line up a cut with out having the blade turning or even having the work touch the blade. When the saw started the setup guide would drop down and the cut made. This would take care of one reason that blade guards are removed.

Doesn't stop you from putting your fingers in the blade but it's a start.


Bill

[LCHIEN]

TV teaches us any problem can be solved in 30 minutes or 60 minutes (or 20 minutes or 40 minutes w/o commercial interruptions).