Do I need a Jointer??

[Iansaws]

I have heard several opinions on this question. Some friends have told me that it took their woodworking experience to the next level and others have told me that it is a must have for any wood shop. At the Woodworking Show I went to a few months ago, one of the demonstrators from Woodworking magazine said he did all his joining on the table saw. I also know that you can use a router table as well.

After looking at a number of 6" benchtop jointers from Delta, Shop Fox, Sunhill, Palmgren and Craftsman there seems to be no concensus on a small jointer that is worth the money. So I open it up to a discussion on this forum. I hope you all can help.

I have a small shop so if I get a jointer, a benchtop model would be preferable.

[LinuxRandal]

How do you buy your lumber, let that be your guide.

A jointer can be a benefit. A planer, is more important, IMHO.
You can edge with a tablesaw, circular saw (sawboard and zero clearance inserts), router, and even seen it done with a guide system and a portable planer (EZ smart).
Thicknessing can be done without it, if using a planer sled. But a jointer can speed up the process (face one side, and plane the other). But even thicknessing can be done with a router and sled, if in a pinch (not to mention hand tools).

I know of one cabinet shop, who buys his lumber, presurfaced and flat. He spends more to get it that way, but then he only has to thickness it to his needed size. It comes down to time, verses space/money/help.

[LCHIEN]

BTW, a joiner an a jointer are two distinctly different tools. You seem to use the terms interchangeably.


Get a jointer if you use rough-cut wood. The purpose of the jointer is to put a flat face and a flat edge at 90° to the flat face on wood. If there are no straight sides, then the table saw will be much more difficult (but not impossible with enough jigs) to do that job.

the main feature you see when looking at a jointer is the long, very flat and heavy bed. Its function is hard to duplicate in any other tool.

Its the right tool for its job.

[drumpriest]

Here's my tutorial on edge jointing larger stock with a router easily.

http://www.bt3central.com/showthread...ewpost&t=27458

I had a bench top for a while, and it was useful, but I probably could have gotten away with using my router table for that stuff of length that the bench top jointer would handle, and larger stuff I do with the above method even now that I have an 8" Jet jointer.

Face jointing is the real problem, as you certainly cannot face joint with a table saw, the planer sled as mentioned by LinuxRandal is a solution to that problem though, and at times it's easier to get results than on a large jointer.

I use my jointer all of the time, I find it to be well worth my investment, but you can get away without one. Largely it's a big time saver. Jointing on the table saw is tricky business if you are really going to glue together the resulting edge, it must be really smooth for a good glue bond. There is debate about if it's ever better to do a glue up right off of the table saw, or if you should always still treat the edge with a jointer.

[Bill in Buena Park]

Ian,
I believe the answer to your question, "Do I need a jointer", depends on what type of stock you start with and what types of projects you. So the answer may be yes or no, depending.

I only use a jointer for three things - first-face planing of rough stock (before thickness planing in the planer), edge-jointing of boards that have edges of dubious straightness, and potentially (though seldom) chamfering.

All edge jointing has one prerequisite - a board with one flat face. So this is where the type of stock you use comes in. The most expeditious tool I know for creating a flat face is the jointer - unless you are a master with hand planes, or have a router-based face-planing jig of some type - otherwise, if you don't have at least one flat face, you're going to need a jointer - and then most likely a planer as well. If you're working with S3S or S4S boards, its highly likely that you'll have 1 flat face to work with.

Edge jointing may be done on a router, as you state, with a straight-edge and template bit, or on a router table and an edge-jointing jig - several are available, my own version is here. Our own Keith Leonard has a good writeup on jointing long stock with a router using the template method here. For both methods, altering the bit height on each pass allows for jointing of stock that is thicker than the cutting height of the bit. You could also use the jig approach to edge-jointing with a table saw, and I've used my jig on my band saw with moderate success as well. In all cases, with one good edge jointed, the other edge should be done on the table saw, with the good edge riding the fence, to get parallel edges (unless you want to do this in a planer, but from what I've read, may be more trouble setting up than its worth.)

For quick edge jointing, a jointer with a fence that is already squared to the table takes really no other setup - position the fence on the jointer table, start the jointer, and run the board with the grain, edge down, good face to the fence, and repeat until you have a flat edge.

My input on jointers - they are a HUGE time saver. I own the Sunhill 6in benchtop, my review of it is here. I have only good things to say about this jointer. The price has gone up a bit though, but still a good deal. You may already know that length of stock you can joint is a function of table-length - I believe 4ft is the opinion of many for max board length on a benchtop.

[3thumbs]

I bought a Delta benchtop jointer. It probably is sufficient for most small jobs, but for the money, I'd wait til I found a much better floor model from somewhere like Craigslist. You might find a really good one for less than a benchtop from your local box store. Once you see what it can do, you will find room for it.
DM

[dbhost]

I checked out the benchtop models I could put my hands on from Delta, Craftsman, and Sunhill. The Delta seemed very cheaply made. The Sunhill and Craftsman are both Geetech built, the main difference being price, color, and where the dust port is on the machine. I like my jointer. It works well with 3' rough stock I am jointing, and is very conservative with space...

I probably could have gotten away with using a planer sled and router table jig to do this task.

I don't see how jointing on a table saw works all that well. I tried it never got the hang of it...

Check out The Wood Whisperer videos, specifically "The Jointers Jumpin'" video.

[poolhound]

I agee about the planer comments. While its great to have a jointer and a planer IMHO if you dont have the room or cash for both, get a planer first. Thats what I did. I started out using my router (either with a straight edge or router table) to edge joint. Using a planer sled and/or a router carriage I was able to face joint.

I then picked up one of the Delta benchtop jointers on CL. They are all a bit finicky and you need to spend some time keeping them setup true. They are also very noisy and have an obvious limit on the length of stock.
If you can find a used one it may be worthwhile but I dont think they are worth the money new. For the $200+ they mostly cost I would find a nice used full size model.

I finally managed to make room in my shop for a full size jointer and was lucky enough to pickup one of the Delta models that Lowes cleared out last year for a crazy price.

I now wouldnt be without it. Yes there are lost of other options and I am glad I learned all the other methods but it does make milling stock much quicker and easier.

[dbhost]

I agee about the planer comments. While its great to have a jointer and a planer IMHO if you dont have the room or cash for both, get a planer first. Thats what I did. I started out using my router (either with a straight edge or router table) to edge joint. Using a planer sled and/or a router carriage I was able to face joint.

I then picked up one of the Delta benchtop jointers on CL. They are all a bit finicky and you need to spend some time keeping them setup true. They are also very noisy and have an obvious limit on the length of stock.
If you can find a used one it may be worthwhile but I dont think they are worth the money new. For the $200+ they mostly cost I would find a nice used full size model.

I finally managed to make room in my shop for a full size jointer and was lucky enough to pickup one of the Delta models that Lowes cleared out last year for a crazy price.

I now wouldnt be without it. Yes there are lost of other options and I am glad I learned all the other methods but it does make milling stock much quicker and easier.

Jon,

How has your experience with the Delta Benchtop model been? I looked at the Delta, admittedly it was a demo model at Lowes, and it was pretty thrashed. The fence wouldn't tighten to save its life, and the tables weren't parallel. Scared me away from the Delta pretty good...

I went with the Sunhill partially based on price, but also based on the fact that it is simply a rebranded Geetech like the Craftsman. I liked what I saw at Sears, but didn't like their price tag...

I have seen good reviews of the Delta Benchtop models, and am starting to think that the Delta is a good jointer, but Lowes floor demo model has been set up wrong, and handled poorly for too long...

I know my Sunhill IS loud, but nowhere near as loud as my planer...

What the guys above have been saying, if you don't have the budget or space for both a good planer, and a jointer, get a planer and build a planer sled... A jointer is VERY nice to have, but not absolutely neccesary...

[poolhound]

Jon,

How has your experience with the Delta Benchtop model been? I looked at the Delta, admittedly it was a demo model at Lowes, and it was pretty thrashed. The fence wouldn't tighten to save its life, and the tables weren't parallel. Scared me away from the Delta pretty good...

I got mine used for $85 so it was an experiment, here is what I found/thought.

1. The fence is pretty weak (to say the least). I found that once I got it set it was OK but learned to avoid resetting it as it was a PITA. It also tended to flex a bit so you needed to use a specific technique to ensure edges were true.

2. The tables were way out (good enough for gvmt work) but.... They were not even close to co-planer. After spending some considerable time shimming the infeed table I got it dead on.

3. very noisy.


After the work I did to true it up it actually worked quite well. I was going to build some longer in/outfeed tables when the Lowes deal came along. I then bought JT360 for around $80 and sold this benchtop for the same amount - good deal

[LCHIEN]

I got mine used for $85 so it was an experiment, here is what I found/thought.

1. The fence is pretty weak (to say the least). I found that once I got it set it was OK but learned to avoid resetting it as it was a PITA. It also tended to flex a bit so you needed to use a specific technique to ensure edges were true.

2. The tables were way out (good enough for gvmt work) but.... They were not even close to co-planer. After spending some considerable time shimming the infeed table I got it dead on.

3. very noisy.


After the work I did to true it up it actually worked quite well. I was going to build some longer in/outfeed tables when the Lowes deal came along. I then bought JT360 for around $80 and sold this benchtop for the same amount - good deal

I had the JT160 and moved up to the JT360 same as poolhound.
The JT160 is OK planing but its short length makes it hard to use for flattening boards over 3-4 feet. the JT360 is probably OK for boards up to 6, maybe 8 feet long

there's also a world of differences in the solidity and robustness of the bigger unit compared to the smaller.
I find my JT360 is a pleasure to use, once tuned up right.

[dbhost]

Iansaws,

I should mention something I didn't above. While I do own the Sunhill SM-150B, and I bought a benchtop intentionally with the hope and and effort going into a dedicated, but small outbuilding workshop. 12x16. IF I end up stuck with only being able to do a 10x12 outbuilding, that will be dedicated to storage, the garage stays a workshop, and a floor model jointer gets brought in...

My benchtop is great for what I use it for. I am not sure I would be willing to try jointing anything over 4' with it. It does 3' pretty comfortably, but I think 4 would push the limits awfully hard. PLUS, the benchtop models typically have cast aluminum tables. The Sunhill uses Cast iron which is different from several of its competitors, even with the cast iron tables, it is awfully light weight. A floor model with bigger cast iron tables and fence will have the mass to keep things smooth & steady. Dust collection from a benchtop unit is not quite as good as full size jointers. The typical 2.5" dust port on a benchtop unit can get jammed awfullly quick with shavings. I found it best to keep my jointer awfully close to my trash can separator to minimize the impact bends, wyes, blast gates and such on jamming... I am slowly migrating to a dedicated 4" system and will have to use a reducer for my jointer and planer... Not ideal, but it is what it is...

Another option you can look into is the combination Jointer / Planer machines. I think Jet and Delta both have versions. At least I am pretty sure Jet does...

The planer section is limited to 10" and the jointer beds are short, but they have a pretty lean footprint in the shop, and aren't priced too horridly...

[Gator95]

Short Answer: No

Slightly Longer Answer: You don't need one, but you will eventually want one- I know I do.

I've got a planer, but no jointer as of yet. I do have to be more careful to buy lumber that is reasonably flat and without twist. Edge jointing is accomplished with a tablesaw. If the board does not have a straight edge that I feel comfortable with, I use a circular saw in a sawboard sled to give it a straight enough edge to put against the fence. I'd love to have a jointer to be able to face joint with ease and ensure 90* angles and squareness. It would definately improve my work now that I'm not hopless in terms of my joinerey. (i.e. I'm getting good enough that a gap or slight out-of-square is more likely due to my materials not being 4-square rather than just general incompetence)

I've produced some decent results, but I spend about 30 minutes per 50BF picking through the pile at my local yard- which is met with some amusement from the folks there. They don't mind as long as I stack it back up neat

If I could get that Delta JT360 deal for $90 I'd be so all over it right now. Glance at CL every once in a while, but real 'deals' here are hard to come by.

[Iansaws]

Planner and Jointer decision

I am looking at a "barely used" Hitachi planner today that I found on Cragslist for $150. Does anyone have any advce ab out what I should look for. Also I am seriously considerng the 6" Sunbelt jointer for just under $200. Wth shippng.

[dbhost]

I am looking at a "barely used" Hitachi planner today that I found on Cragslist for $150. Does anyone have any advce ab out what I should look for. Also I am seriously considerng the 6" Sunbelt jointer for just under $200. Wth shippng.

I have the 6" Sunhill bencthop jointer. I really like it.

Not sure about the Hitachi planer. If you want to go new instead of used, you could grab a Ryobi AP1301 13" planer. I have one and really like it.