I know there's no free lunch, but... (Re: DC)

[Schleeper]

The purpose of the Neutral vane is to prevent the air that is coming around the cylcone from acting as a plug to the inlet air stream. if you want to set the Neutral vane you could make a U-tube manometer out of some clear plastic tubing and put about 10" of water in the tube. Install one side of the u-tube on the OUTLET of the fan and the other open to the atmosphere move the vane in and out until you have the LOWEST reading on the u-tube.

To calculate pressure in a U-tube manometer, add the sum of the readings above and below zero. This diagram shows an atmospheric reading of 4.

Now I've got an even bigger problem. I can't see, because my eyes have rolled back into my head and they won't come back down!

Thanks, Art, but there are limits to my DIY aspirations. And you have managed to leapfrog them by a significant margin!

[master53yoda]

Couple of points:

(1) Replacing your neutral vane with a baffle on your DC's ring will significantly reduce the amount of material that gets to your filter. Do not use the baffle WITH a neutral vane, it will work better without one.

(2) If you use a separator, add the baffle there, too.

It is possible that some of the drop in CFM you experienced after adding the separator was due to the fact that your filter was already plugged. So I'd add a baffle to both the DC ring and the separator and try again. If you still aren't getting enough CFM at the planer, then you may have to eliminate the separator, but you'll still have the baffle in the DC ring which will keep the filter from plugging so quickly.

If you really have your heart on a separator and the one you have isn't cutting it, you can always make your own with a side-inlet.

is your comment about the neutral vane from experience or opinion I happen to be a mechanical engineer

[Schleeper]

You might install a Phil Thien baffle in the dust collector that should prevent undo filter plugging and come close to cyclone quality dust separation . see picture attached.

The HF dust collector will move about 1300 cfm but with a 4" hose it is only moving about 650 to 700 at the device. The longer the hose the less cfm you will move and you will have less dust collection capability. Please remember that the DCs purpose is removal of large particulate. Small dust removal is the purpose of a high volume filter assembly.

What planer are you running I have problems with my planer not doing a real good job if the board is narrow due to the design of the collection hood on the planer.

Sorry, Art, the reponses came so fast that I ended up on the second page of the thread before I realized it, so I missed out on some of the earlier ones.

You may have hit on part of the problem. I'm using a Ridgid R4330, and I'm planing narrow boards for rails and stiles for cabinet doors and face frames.

[cgallery]

is your comment about the neutral vane from experience or opinion I happen to be a mechanical engineer

My own testing.

[dbhost]

is your comment about the neutral vane from experience or opinion I happen to be a mechanical engineer

So is my ex, I hope that you are more competent than she is... (Not a comment about you, but the comment that I am an engineer has many people thinking that they automatically know what they are talking about. Anyone that repairs mechanical objects for a living such as auto mechanics can testify that many engineers are overpaid dunderheads...)

[master53yoda]

So is my ex, I hope that you are more competent than she is... (Not a comment about you, but the comment that I am an engineer has many people thinking that they automatically know what they are talking about. Anyone that repairs mechanical objects for a living such as auto mechanics can testify that many engineers are overpaid dunderheads...)

My background for the last ten years was a field test engineer my job was to verify proper operation on mechanical and electrical systems in large facilities. 80% of the problems I worked with where improper installation or adjustment, 20% were miss design issues, the 20 % that were engineer related issues where by fare the the hardest to get taken care of because the engineers had a very hard time admitting they where wrong. I was a service side engineer for 25 years prior to the last ten dealing with engineer designed problems so I now exactly what your talking about.


I agree that the neutral vane will make little difference in dust separation using a Thien baffle but will always reduce the pressure drop entering the collection and if adjusted properly they will increase the CFM , that is the whole purpose of a neutral vane whether it is on the inlet of a cyclone, boiler stack or turbine.

My planer with the same problem is the 4330 from Ridged, its problem is the dust hood pulls the chips off off the rotor but does not pull enough air from below to clear the table. I actually had better chip removal using the 2 1/2" hooked to my vacuum cleaner then the 3"' straight into the DC due to the vacuum having higher static pressure and higher velocity then the DC. Did you remove the 2 1/2 " port on the planer I have not yer done that but it will reduce the pressure drop which does affect the DC more then the vacuum.

Any pressure drop on the discharge side of a blower such as a dirty filter removes available pressure and cfm from the suction side. Any increase in the total pressure seen by the fan on the inlet or outlet reduces CFM.

[LinuxRandal]

Anyone that repairs mechanical objects for a living such as auto mechanics can testify that many engineers are overpaid dunderheads...)

As a former wrencher, while I agree on the dunderheads, they design for a different reason. Quick assembly on the assembly line, NOT for servicing. That is a separate group that goes on to disassemble and figure the repair times for publishing.

[Rich P]

John

Ran across an interesting configuration over at sawmillcreek which featured a separator with a baffle. I may give it a shot if I have the same problems with filter clogging frequency. It looks like it might be possible to put it together and still keep things portable (which I need). Here is the thread.

BTW, did you go with the polyester or blend Wynn filter?

Rich

[master53yoda]

that is the Thien baffle that we have been talking about

[Schleeper]

Rich,

Thanks, I'll check that out.

After a discussion with the people at Wynn regarding my usage, we agreed that the less expensive of the two would suit me fine.

[JR]

A couple of thoughts:

1. re getting more air flow on the 2hp HF DC: try implementing the larryg mod on the pipe between the impeller and the ring. I did it over the weekend and it seemed to be a significant improvement in air flow. http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=29974

2. re the filter getting clogged. You are probably going to have to learn to clean it as you go. Some people give it a whack with the palm of their hand every time they pass. I have determined that going over the filter with an air hose, using a painters back-and-forth motion, clears it very well. With hesitation, and deference to the ongoing agument as to who's a competent engineer, I present my test here. Go to the bottom of the page http://www.bt3central.com/showthread...ghlight=filter

3. re having to replace the bag due to filling up. Learn to like it!

JR

[Schleeper]

My background for the last ten years was a field test engineer my job was to verify proper operation on mechanical and electrical systems in large facilities. 80% of the problems I worked with where improper installation or adjustment, 20% were miss design issues, the 20 % that were engineer related issues where by fare the the hardest to get taken care of because the engineers had a very hard time admitting they where wrong. I was a service side engineer for 25 years prior to the last ten dealing with engineer designed problems so I now exactly what your talking about.


I agree that the neutral vane will make little difference in dust separation using a Thien baffle but will always reduce the pressure drop entering the collection and if adjusted properly they will increase the CFM , that is the whole purpose of a neutral vane whether it is on the inlet of a cyclone, boiler stack or turbine.

My planer with the same problem is the 4330 from Ridged, its problem is the dust hood pulls the chips off off the rotor but does not pull enough air from below to clear the table. I actually had better chip removal using the 2 1/2" hooked to my vacuum cleaner then the 3"' straight into the DC due to the vacuum having higher static pressure and higher velocity then the DC. Did you remove the 2 1/2 " port on the planer I have not yer done that but it will reduce the pressure drop which does affect the DC more then the vacuum.

Any pressure drop on the discharge side of a blower such as a dirty filter removes available pressure and cfm from the suction side. Any increase in the total pressure seen by the fan on the inlet or outlet reduces CFM.

Yes, Art, I removed the 2-1/2" adapter before I attached the hose to the dust port of the 4330. Are you saying you get better results with it left in?

These dust collection discussions always seem to be a hotbed of varying opinions and experiences. It never even occurred to me to contact any of my RPI classmates about it. For all I know, this may be what they do for a living!

[master53yoda]

no it only worked better with the vacuum then the DC the insert would restrict the DC so it is better with it out on the DC

[Schleeper]

A couple of thoughts:

1. re getting more air flow on the 2hp HF DC: try implementing the larryg mod on the pipe between the impeller and the ring. I did it over the weekend and it seemed to be a significant improvement in air flow. http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=29974

2. re the filter getting clogged. You are probably going to have to learn to clean it as you go. Some people give it a whack with the palm of their hand every time they pass. I have determined that going over the filter with an air hose, using a painters back-and-forth motion, clears it very well. With hesitation, and deference to the ongoing agument as to who's a competent engineer, I present my test here. Go to the bottom of the page http://www.bt3central.com/showthread...ghlight=filter

3. re having to replace the bag due to filling up. Learn to like it!

JR

Thanks, JR. Actually, I found I've already been doing some of the stuff the rest of you guys are doing. The last time I cleaned the filter, I took it all the way off. The positions I was putting myself in to vacuum it out while in place were going to result with me in traction. Besides, I kept shocking the daylights out of myself!

You may want to check the link for that larryg mod. All i got was a grand tour of his workshop (which, admittedly, is impressive.)

[JR]

You may want to check the link for that larryg mod. All i got was a grand tour of his workshop (which, admittedly, is impressive.)

Sorry, that was the best link I could find. Note that he uses two 5" articulating elbows and a short piece of 5" HVAC duct, cut into two pieces. I think there is a thread in which Larry talks about the specific mod, but just couldn't find it.

In any case, it was easy to do (except for me emulating John Cleese in The Holy Grail, spewing blood all over the place due to the effects of recently-cut sheet metal. "Is that all you've got, sheet metal?" as my thumb spews forth. "Come on, fight like a man!" as my index finger gushes. But I digress.), cheap, and seems to have made a marked improvement.

JR