HF "Central Machinery" and Craftsman

[Bill in Buena Park]

I was perusing the HF website, looking at their 14in bs, and noticed the little 9in they have

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=96980

I thought the framework looked familiar, and cross-checked the Sears website for their 9in Craftsman

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...Name=Band+Saws

This may not be news to anyone - but I believe they are the same tool. My question is - do we know who the actual mfr is, and is it the same mfr that produces the HF 14" bs?

[Uncle Cracker]

Could be the same manufacturer, as Sears does not build its own equipment, but with one company knocking off another as much as they do these days, it's hard to tell the players without a scorecard any more...

[LCHIEN]

almost certainly that saw is made in china.
Sears has ALL its tools made by contract manufacturers.
They may be made under an "Exclusive" contract meaning no one else can sell it but that usually costs more, so low cost items are usually not exclusive.

Also, some chinese factories are "interconnected" meaning thay may share designs even if they make it for someone else. Or unscrupulously sell manufacturing overruns or even deliberately make a few more unauthorized units for themselves to sell to pad their profit. Sometimes they simply directly and unabashedly copy other peoples designs by reverse engineering. The main government is fighting a sometimes very lax view of intellectual property rights. I read about all these problems in the electronics magazines in which they describe the problems of manufacturing overseas; I'm sure the same problems for machinery exist as for electronics.

[williwatt]

I have the Sears bandsaw and I have always thought it was made by Rikon.

http://www.rikontools.com/images/Man...w%20Manual.pdf

The Rikon pictured is a 10", but comparing the parts it appears to very similar to the Sears 9".

[Uncle Cracker]

I have the Sears bandsaw and I have always thought it was made by Rikon.

The Rikon saw is designed by Rikon, but made overseas.

[ejs1097]

I found it interesting that the Craftsman model is the same price as the HF model. Actually right now the craftsman is on sale for $20 less.

[Carlos]

Here's the deal on China...a few friends have products they invented made there, and filled me in... First off they are famous for taking your designs and cheapening them to sell on their own. So Jet has them make a tool, and they copy it and sell it with an off brand. Looks the same, but it has been cheapened. For example my HF metal-cutting bandsaw is a rip-off of the Jet, but the motor is weaker and of lower quality. That doesn't matter to me since it still goes through my metals, just slower, but on a metal bandsaw you clamp the work, start it, and walk away. So time is not an issue. Also the tracking adjustment and guide bearings are not as well made as on the Jet.

Another thing many factories do is run a shift (or a day) for Company X under certain standards, then run a shift (or a day) for Company Y under other standards. Maybe a third shift for themselves with no standards. Thus you can end up with things that look the same but go from good to mediocre to crappy.

[BobSch]

Here's a list of manufaturers Sears uses. If you've got the part number it should tell you who made it.

www.owwm.com/Craftsman/Manufacturers-Prefix.asp

[Uncle Cracker]

Thus you can end up with things that look the same but go from good to mediocre to crappy.

Or maybe just from mediocre to crappy...

[Bill in Buena Park]

If these two saws are not made by the same mfr (or one under license to produce and sell), wouldn't HF be at risk for marketing the unlicensed knockoff? The level of duplication in the details, including the catches and catch placement, the base & table mounting holes, even the blade guide knob & mounting, etc. - would make this an incredible copy for sure. Obviously can't tell quality of bearings & internal stuff, but specs for motor and blade speed show as the same. Only the power switch housing is slightly different.

Thanks for the info on the China tools. Good reminder to check all the specs on any tool to ensure suitability of intended use.

[LCHIEN]

If these two saws are not made by the same mfr (or one under license to produce and sell), wouldn't HF be at risk for marketing the unlicensed knockoff? The level of duplication in the details, including the catches and catch placement, the base & table mounting holes, even the blade guide knob & mounting, etc. - would make this an incredible copy for sure. Obviously can't tell quality of bearings & internal stuff, but specs for motor and blade speed show as the same. Only the power switch housing is slightly different.

Thanks for the info on the China tools. Good reminder to check all the specs on any tool to ensure suitability of intended use.

In intellectual property Design details are a gray area.
The manufacturing drawings are probably copyrighted, however, a good designer draftsman can physically measure and copy details from a model and produce equivalent drawings to build a nearly identical device, changing a few tolerances here and there and supplier insofrmation for nuts and bolts would prove its not a copy. Key components, like bearings, if bought would not be illegal, since they are openly sold in standard sizes and obviously fit for purpose why would you not chose them?

Motor speeds are dictated by the line frequncy, Copying pulley diameters there are only so many sizes, so it would not be proprietary. Any copy of looks, layout etc spacing is not protected unless you have specifically copyrighted, for example, the grille design of a BMW as some key characteristics making it a copyright. All Bandsaws have similar designs mcuh as cars have four wheels, steering in the front, a motor and front and back seats, the basic design elements are all going to be similar. A sheet metal saw is pretty easy to copy and no intellectual, patentable featurs on it make it fair game, if you didn't want to have a individual, distinct design of your own.

Placement of latches, fasteners, etc are easy enough to copy and you don't need to experiment and find out the best location and avoid interferences if someone else has already done it.

in this case, without knowing if there are any relationships among the contractors, manufacturers, or involved parties, it impossible to say if this is a knock off design copy, or a unit made to the same drawings underhandedly deliberate overruns behind the scenes and sold without Sear's knowledge, or if the designer licensed the design to multiple factories who then sold to multiple retailers, or if the designer contracted one or more factories to build it and sell to different retail distributors.

[joekj]

odds are they are off the same line

I have a 9x20 metal lathe, that is the same as the jet, down to the inspection stamps. compared both on the showroom floor. I need a dust chute for my jet 12dx planer. compared the parts schematics with the grizzly G0505, same planer as the jet except tables and column lock. On the other hand my dewalt scroll saw came from taiwan opposed to canada, I cant see a difference. my ridgid jig saw was made by metabo, the same saw is now made in china. fwiw Joe

[mpauly]

I found it interesting that the Craftsman model is the same price as the HF model. Actually right now the craftsman is on sale for $20 less.

And the craftsman comes with a fence.

[Carlos]

wouldn't HF be at risk for marketing the unlicensed knockoff?

You can't patent something obvious, and you can't copyright a design. This is why designers plaster their logo so clearly on clothing and accessories; anyone can freely copy their designs, but not their trademarked logo. Even a color can be trademarked when associated with a specific product. I'm betting that the HF green was chosen when Powermatic abandoned it as their color.

[LarryG]

You can't patent something obvious, and you can't copyright a design.

In the United States, you can obtain a design patent, which covers the visual characteristics of an actual physical and/or functional object. This differs from copyrighted trade names, logos and trademarks, which can be superficially applied to the actual product but also to almost anything else, functional or not.

Wikipedia has a brief entry on design patents, and notes one famous example of a design patent: the contoured shape of a Coca-Cola bottle.