To Biscuit Join Or Not to Biscuit Join

[radhak]

I want to start on a basic TV stand (or the Compact Entertainment Center, as Wood Mag calls it). This is the first request from the wife, so want to do it right.

Now the instructions call for biscuit joins for the base legs, and some of the panels. I do not have a biscuit joiner, and have burnt up most of this month's allowance (and next months too). As I understand it, my options are :

a. Use my Kreg Rocket kit to use pocket hole joining instead.
b. Use the slot cutter router bit (part of Holbren's set) to make the biscuit joins on my router table.
c. Scrounge around and buy a lower-end (Freud / Ryobi / O'Malley) BJ.

What do y'all say?

[ChrisD]

The feet are actually two pieces miter-joined together, correct? Since it's a long-grain-to-long-grain joint, simply edge-gluing them should work.

As for the rails that connect the feet, this would be a good opportunity for a mortise-and-tenon joint.

The whole base assembly has a structural function, so I'm not sure if pocket screws would be a good choice.

[radhak]

The feet are actually two pieces miter-joined together, correct?

Correct.

Since it's a long-grain-to-long-grain joint, simply edge-gluing them should work.

Um, does it not need the strength provided by the biscuits (i assume they do that)?

As for the rails that connect the feet, this would be a good opportunity for a mortise-and-tenon joint.

That's an idea. Lemme check the plan.

The whole base assembly has a structural function, so I'm not sure if pocket screws would be a good choice.

Umm - not even when replacing biscuit joints?

[jackellis]

I have the O'Malley BJ. It takes a bit of care and practice to use, but I just finished making a drawer for my drill press table with it. The O'Malley is about $60, appears to be well enough engineered, and suits me fine for the limit use it'll get.

For panel glue-ups, you can get away without some sort of structural support like biscuits or dowels between the edges, but you'll want to take care to get clean edges and spread lots of glue all the way to the edge of the board. I just made up a cutting board to replace a built-in this way and so far, so good.

[Tequila]

It's tough to say for sure without seeing the joints in question, but it looks like that stand can definitely be built using pocket screws.

[drumpriest]

I would probably use dowels, easy to cut and align, and don't show. I like my pocket screws, but they have limited uses. Loose mortise and tenon is another great option. I am indeed working on a web video of how to do that, I just havn't had the time yet this week.

[radhak]

I scanned the diagram and uploaded here.

Looking closely at the mitered joints between the two halves of the legs, maybe a pocket hole is not possible...?

[Jeffrey Schronce]

I scanned the diagram and uploaded here.

Looking closely at the mitered joints between the two halves of the legs, maybe a pocket hole is not possible...?

Are you a new woodworker (I kind of assume yes if this is the first project your wife has commissioned since my wife dictates 95% of my projects)? If you are this may be a bit much of a project.
If you have a little experience then certainly go for it! I believe that for the average woodworker this design is overly complicated. If were you I would simply use 8/4 material to create a 2 x 2 leg/foot and use pocket hole joinery (PHJ) to connect the rails. I since you are using a thicker material with the 8/4, you can cut a deeper stronger PHJ and use 1.5" fine washer head screws instead of 1.25" used in 3/4 wood. I believe that joint would be more than strong enough for this project. I also believe others are going to start howling about the Wood Mag review of joinery which cites PHJ as being inferior, to which I say bbllllaaaaaa. However, I will concede with the joinery purist that I would personally use 8/4 and M&T joint myself, however if you are not that far along the PHJ will be fine.
You mention using the slot cutting bits for BJ. I understand how you can use a router and a slot cutter to work on the edges of material, but how are you going to cut slots in the middle of a piece of plywood?
I wonder whats the point of the 3/4 mitered at 45 and BJ'd together? It seems like extra work for less strength than using 8/4.

BTW, I really like this design.

Note: I also suffer from sleep disorder and took Ambien about 30 minutes ago so this may just whole thought process may be a hallucination.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

I would probably use dowels, easy to cut and align, and don't show. I like my pocket screws, but they have limited uses. Loose mortise and tenon is another great option. I am indeed working on a web video of how to do that, I just havn't had the time yet this week.

You couldn't use dowels or M&T on the 45 degree miter joint though, right? You would be depending upon the strength of the glue joint only.

[MBG]

I just built a CD/DVD cabinet using a similar base:



I mitered the corners and used pocket screws (BTW - I also have a biscuit jointer). What I did to add strength is closely fit a piece of 3/4" ply into the open space between the base sides and used pocket screws to attach the ply to the oak sides. It's hard to see, but, this allowed me to make the base a little proud of the cabinet and attach the cabinet to the ply again with pocket screws.

For the door rails/styles you can also use pocket screws but you will have to plug them since they will be visible (actually if you use a contrasting hardwood for the plugs it would look nice).

For the flat panel glue-ups I would not use biscuits when edge jointing such short panels.

Good luck on the project and don't hesitate to ask for help!

Mike

[radhak]

jackellis, does the OMalley allow different angles? One of the Freud only allows 90 degrees.

i may not go for dowels - don't have the paraphernelia as yet.

Jeffrey, am i new to WW? hooboy, No! i have been doing this all of this year! well, seeing that this time last year i did not know a rip-cut from a cross-cut, i guess you could call me a novice WW and still make me proud!

That said, i have got the guidance of an excellent teacher at my local community school, and have managed a couple of simple tables, stools etc (and Norm's adirondack chair) and did manage a couple of passable M&T joints along the way. Now i want something challenging, so this. And i am guessing worst case would be that i would be re-doing a couple of the pieces, and am ok with that.

But you have touched upon the one puzzle i myself had - wouldn't it be stronger to use thicker stock for the feet? But maybe this (miter-jointed) would look nicer?

The plan calls for placing the plywood on this base and just gluing it. Again- is that strong enough...?

When you say you like this design, is that aesthetically, or for its strength, or - what?

[radhak]

I just built a CD/DVD cabinet using a similar base:

I mitered the corners and used pocket screws (BTW - I also have a biscuit jointer). What I did to add strength is closely fit a piece of 3/4" ply into the open space between the base sides and used pocket screws to attach the ply to the oak sides. It's hard to see, but, this allowed me to make the base a little proud of the cabinet and attach the cabinet to the ply again with pocket screws.

For the door rails/styles you can also use pocket screws but you will have to plug them since they will be visible (actually if you use a contrasting hardwood for the plugs it would look nice).

For the flat panel glue-ups I would not use biscuits when edge jointing such short panels.

Good luck on the project and don't hesitate to ask for help!

Mike

Missed your post earlier, Mike. that's a fabulous piece of work - wow! Now i can set my sights to getting close to your cabinet as inspiration.

Did you use pocket screws on the joint first, then add the ply? Btw, that ply idea is great - adds strength, and surface to screw the cabinet. And yes, the base proud of the cabinet gives it a classy look, methinks.

Did you add narrow strips of ply between the base sides at front and back , or one wide piece all over?

I could use pocket screws on the inside of the rail-styles - not visible once assembled. Of course, visible, contrasting colored plugins would be nice too.

The plan seems to be simplified for beginners like me - most of the panels are plywood, minimizing edge joints.

I highly appreciate the time and effort you and jeffrey and the others spend in reading and responding to this. Adds oodles of confidence even before i begin, and assurance that i could always come back and ask for doubts on the way.
Thanks a ton!

[JimD]

Thicker wood on the corner is a fully viable option IMHO. I like and use biscuits regularly and also pocket screws and mortise and tenons. To do the corner as shown in Wood, you have to cut a good miter joint - not that simple - and then cut the biscuit joint - simplier IMHO. If you use solid wood, you don't have to cut either.

I think it was FWW that did a recent biscuit jointer review and labeled the new Ryobi a best buy. Their only complaint was that the slots were oversized unless you "cocked your wrist" - I assume they mean apply a small twisting force to take up the slop in the plunge mechanism. It's about $100 as is the very similar Craftsman.

If a $100 tool is too much right now, I'd make the corners of thicker wood. I think the appearance would be, if anything, better as would the solidity. FWW liked the Lamillo models the best but they are way overpriced. Next I think was the Porter Cable and the DeWalt was also viewed highly. All at least $150.

I use an old "Skil" that is not sold anymore. The fence is plastic and must be set with wooden blocks of a known thickness because the mechanism is essentially non-existant. Miter joints require a home-made wooden block screwed to the fence. I bring this up to say better tools help but it is possible to do some pretty good work without having the "best" of each type of tool. You can compensate but it's less hassle to just get a good tool to start with. I've tried the router bit but I don't think you'll like the result. It does not cut the right sized slots (right width but not right shape).

Jim

[LCHIEN]

I think Chris D is correct, you can simply glue the mitered corner joint.
The best glue joint is edge grain to edge grain, also, looking at it, the joint is vertical, there are no real forces pulling them apart even when the cabinet is heavily loaded.

Just use a good miter clamp to hold them in correct alignment when the glue sets. A good glue joint is stronger than the wood.

[jackellis]

jackellis, does the OMalley allow different angles? One of the Freud only allows 90 degrees.

The O'Malley does have an adjustable fence, but I would probably build a jig to support both the workpiece and the tool so that they meet at the correct angle and stay there as you apply pressure to move the blade into the workpiece. It's my experience that if you don't support both correctly, you end up with misaligned biscuits and crooked joints.