Pondering bulb bans, and shop lighting...

[Stytooner]

That cold in Oklahoma? I smell something fishy about that tale...

It was late 80's in Geronimo OK. It was at or very close to zero, but the wind chill was killer. Nothing out there to slow that wind down. I could have went ice fishing for sure.

[dbhost]

Kind of splitting hairs there. They've changed the standards such the the traditional bulbs that 99% of us used most places in the home 10 years ago are no longer able to be manufactured. Effectively 'banning' them.

An equivalent might be new energy standards that required cars to get at least 100mpg equivalent. They're not banning standard engines directly, but...

That said, I'm not necessarily against it. The "ban" has caused the price of LED bulbs to come down from over $60 per bulb to where I bought a few at the BORG for $7 and some change a few weeks ago. Now some would argue that it's still a lot more than the old style, but they will last nearly forever, and are extremely cheap to run (something like 9W for 60W of power). And they have none of the drawbacks that CFLs have like mercury and slow warm-up time.

-Tim

In the home my problem with CFLS so far has been...

#1. SLOW warm up time. The CFLs I had in the old chandelier in the dining room took 10 minutes to warm up enough to throw usable light.
#2. Rapid, and I mean RAPID burn out. As fast or faster than traditional bulbs and a much higher cost.
#3. Bulb flashing. My house is equipped with Decora style illuminated switches because of a family member with very low vision, and the combination of illuminated switches and CFLs means the capacitor would slowly charge up, reach the firing point, flash the bulb and then go dry, repeat the cycle so that every few seconds the bulbs would flash... BAD idea...

I have recently see dimmable LEDs that are reportedly flicker free. I am going to grab a box of 6 of the 60 watt replacement bulbs and put them in the main offending bedroom, front hallway, and laundry fixtures to see if they work to our satisfaction. If they do I will end up going that way, soon... The opaque globes on most of my fixtures may dampen the flicker effect sufficiently to put that out of my mind...

Back to the original point of shop lighting though...

From my digging it looks like perhaps the T-12 fixtures can be upgraded to GE #71037 2 lamp 4 foot T8 electronic ballasts for $14.99 + tax each.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-4-ft-1...1037/100632123

It looks like the T8 fixtures wire up differently from the T12 however, and I haven't found a good wiring diagram for a 2 bulb T8 fixture yet... I assume my cheapie T12s have magnetic ballasts, but I am not really sure... I know I want to go with the electronic ballast T8, and a good quality unit, so the GE is how I was wanting to go...

From what I saw in several Youtube videos I have to put a jumper between pins on the holders, but it wasn't explained well. Can anyone provide a link?

[woodturner]

Kind of splitting hairs there. They've changed the standards such the the traditional bulbs that 99% of us used most places in the home 10 years ago are no longer able to be manufactured. Effectively 'banning' them.

That's my point - those bulbs are still available, they are not banned or unavailable. I don't think it is "splitting hairs" at all, since there is no real change in availability.

100W, 60W, and 75W equivalent incandescent bulbs will be readily available for years to come. They do use a little less energy, but otherwise are indistinguishable from the bulbs we used in the past.

[woodturner]

#1. SLOW warm up time. The CFLs I had in the old chandelier in the dining room took 10 minutes to warm up enough to throw usable light.

How old were those CFL bulbs? New CFL bulbs achieve full brightness in a few seconds at room temperature.

#2. Rapid, and I mean RAPID burn out. As fast or faster than traditional bulbs and a much higher cost.

CFLs and LEDs are more susceptible to "dirty" power. Given the number of electronic devices in most homes, a whole house surge protector is a good idea and will resolve this issue.

#3. Bulb flashing. My house is equipped with Decora style illuminated switches because of a family member with very low vision, and the combination of illuminated switches and CFLs means the capacitor would slowly charge up, reach the firing point, flash the bulb and then go dry, repeat the cycle so that every few seconds the bulbs would flash.

Haven't heard of that issue before, not sure I can be of much help on this one.

I have recently see dimmable LEDs that are reportedly flicker free.

The normal "flash rate" of LEDs is well beyond the range of the human eye and is essentially invisible. If you are seeing flashing, maybe the LED is not well designed or is defective?

FWIW, LEDs can't be dimmed by reducing voltage - the current must be reduced or the LED duty cycle must be reduced. That's why dimmable LEDs typically pulse the LEDs. Non-dimmable LEDs don't need to flash, the brightness is set by controlling the current.

[dbhost]

How old were those CFL bulbs? New CFL bulbs achieve full brightness in a few seconds at room temperature.

I replaced the Chandelier in early January as a Christmas present to my wife, she has been after me about that for years. The CFL bulbs were less than a year old bought at Home Depot. I think they were Phillips branded.

CFLs and LEDs are more susceptible to "dirty" power. Given the number of electronic devices in most homes, a whole house surge protector is a good idea and will resolve this issue.

Agreed, which is also why they are a poor substitute for incandescent bulbs which by their nature put up with the low quality power grid better.

Haven't heard of that issue before, not sure I can be of much help on this one.

Google it. It would appear this is a pretty widespread problem. At least where illuminated switches are used.

The normal "flash rate" of LEDs is well beyond the range of the human eye and is essentially invisible. If you are seeing flashing, maybe the LED is not well designed or is defective?

On cars including BMW, Jaguar, Caddilac, and Bentley, residential lighting, street lights etc? (The traffic lights in Bend Oregon are LED, they went that way in about 2005 I think it was, drove me nuts). My eyes are not what you would call "normal", I have a condition known as Nystagmus which is an involuntary movement of the eye. For the most part it doesn't impact my vision, however I see things many people, most likely most people do not. CRT refreshes, LED flicker etc... Being able to catch the LED flashing is actually fairly common with people with Nystagmus. I have several friends similarly impacted and they report the same issues... I also understand there are other vision, and physical conditions such as epilepsy and narcolepsy that rapid light flashes impact.

[gerti]

I use a lot of these lately:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Warm-Whi.../181283481452?

I have converted closets and pantries to use these, switching on automatically triggered by switches (magnetic reed, micro switches, IR switch).

In the kitchen I use them as under-cabinet lighting, with soft start and motion detector, and a RF control from the home automation that switches it between full on, light, dark and night mode. I am using a board of my own design to control those. The frequency I use for dimming is >400Hz, that should be imperceptible to even the most sensitive folks.

[tfischer]

I agree with dbhost- my experience with CFLs is the same, other than I haven't had too bad of issues with them having a short life. But the slow warm-up time (worse with the brighter 100w equivs, but bad enough with all of 'em) and lack of dimming make me only tolerate them. I've actually started replacing CFLs with LEDs... doubt we ever got the payback on the CFLs (especially the more expensive ones like the PAR30 type) but I just can't stand them.

We redid our kitchen last year and put in all LED lighting. I simply love it - and love the fact that I"m not always worried about the fact that 400W of lights is running like in the old kitchen... we have more lights now than we did and all the LED fixtures are something like 60W total.

If you're looking for a good "standard incan" equivalent LED bulb, try the CREE ones from Home Depot. They dim perfectly, are at least as bright as a 60W, and they look decent in most fixtures (unlike the stupid curlie-cue CFLs)

[tfischer]

That's my point - those bulbs are still available, they are not banned or unavailable. I don't think it is "splitting hairs" at all, since there is no real change in availability.

100W, 60W, and 75W equivalent incandescent bulbs will be readily available for years to come. They do use a little less energy, but otherwise are indistinguishable from the bulbs we used in the past.

They're still available until current stock runs out (just like T12s). I doubt that will be "years to come".

[LCHIEN]

Like woodturner says, incandescants using the halogen technology meets the energy requirements, just barely, and will be available for the forseeable future or at least until other technology makes then uneconomical, there's no legislation banning them.

[tfischer]

Like woodturner says, incandescants using the halogen technology meets the energy requirements, just barely, and will be available for the forseeable future or at least until other technology makes then uneconomical, there's no legislation banning them.

OK I see what he means now.

But I still disagree with the statement that "no bulbs were banned". The good old non-halogen standard 60W bulbs that most of us used nearly exclusively 10 years ago are essentially 'banned'.

[LCHIEN]

Old fashioned tungsten incandescents are not banned by name or type. They are banned by efficiency standards.

I've had many CFLs fail well before their promoted lifetimes... its hard to prove because who keeps installed date and on-off time records for a $5 item that's supposed to last for 50,000 hours... but they don't in my opinion, of course not every one I've installed has failed yet.

Its also a little publicised fact that CFLs lives and light output are both reduced a significant fraction by mounting in any position other than base down... all of mine are mounted base up in ceiling fixtures of one sort or another. Fine print in the box or package it comes in.

[woodturner]

The CFL bulbs were less than a year old bought at Home Depot.

Interesting, was not aware of that issue. I was really thinking commenting about "regular light bulbs", sounds like the chandelier lamps may be different.

On cars including BMW, Jaguar, Caddilac, and Bentley, residential lighting, street lights etc?

I was really thinking of residential light bulbs again. It's not necessary to flash LEDs at all to dim them, they can be dimmed by controlling current, but most of the common lamp driver chips available do flash the LED. I would imagine "higher end" applications like a Jaguar would control current rather than flash, but that's my own speculation and thoughts on how I would design those systems rather they knowledge of how they actually do it.

Perhaps the useful information here is that you may be able to find some LEDs that don't flash and may work better for you. The problem is that it may be difficult to determine which LED bulbs would not flash, without actually trying them.

[woodturner]

They're still available until current stock runs out (just like T12s). I doubt that will be "years to come".

No, the higher efficiency standard incandescent bulbs are still being manufactured and will be for at least another five to ten years. It's not limited to current stock.

[dbhost]

Interesting, was not aware of that issue. I was really thinking commenting about "regular light bulbs", sounds like the chandelier lamps may be different.



I was really thinking of residential light bulbs again. It's not necessary to flash LEDs at all to dim them, they can be dimmed by controlling current, but most of the common lamp driver chips available do flash the LED. I would imagine "higher end" applications like a Jaguar would control current rather than flash, but that's my own speculation and thoughts on how I would design those systems rather they knowledge of how they actually do it.

Perhaps the useful information here is that you may be able to find some LEDs that don't flash and may work better for you. The problem is that it may be difficult to determine which LED bulbs would not flash, without actually trying them.

Well, like I had mentioned before, with the new chandelier, the hall lighting etc... as long as the flashes / light is diffused I can't notice it. So no both...

The the same token, I hear many people say they see flourescent flickers, I can't... Well I mean I can see flickering bulbs say like the ones that flicker pretty slow right before they go out, but not regular / new bulbs... Go figure.

I really only need to worry about the exposed bulb situations such as the recessed lighting, and ceiling fans, which is sadly the majority of my lighting at home. I have been talking with a friend with the same issues, and he has been experimenting with the Cree LED lights and likes them so far. No attempts in a ceiling fan though, and I know those can be hard on bulbs...

[lrr]

I'm extremely happy with the several brands of LED bulbs (A19) that are 60W equivalent -- but only the Daylight color. I find the Warm White to seem too yellow for my taste, and not all that great in terms of perceived illumination. But that would probably have been true if I'd had a 60W incandescent. I had hoarded a number of 100Ws, as well as 75W, so the were reasonably bright to start with before the change to LED. The 60W-equivalent LEDs in Daylight seem just as bright to me. Plus, in my shop, I've gone to Daylight tubes in almost all fixtures, and want the LED lamps to blend well with the fluorescents.

I found some great deals on Daylight LEDs at Walmart, and then they disappeared from the shelves. Now it seems that many of the small retailers are just stocking Warm White. Home Depot has a good selection in all colors, and Lowe's is hit or miss on Daylight, but does carry Warm and Soft White in most bulb styles.

The best deal in my town for LED bulbs is Batteries Plus. I would have never thought to look there, but went there to get a new watch battery for my wife. (One of the few places that changes batteries in watches, does it for free when you buy the battery, and the price is reasonable -- $6.99 if I recall.)

Interestingly, the non-dimmable seem to be getting scarce at my local stores. I bought a few for locations where I would not dim the light, and saved a dollar or so. But lately, the dimmable seem just as cheap. In the long run, the economies of scale would seem to me to dictate that non-dimmable go away. It is much cheaper to just build one design in volume. Plus there is just too many options for the general public, who is not going to be as savvy as us ...