Another French Cleat question

[dbaudo1]

I've done some searches here and on the sawmillcreek forums and haven't found what I'm looking for. I've been thinking of utilizing a french cleat setup to build a row of shelves approximately 18"-24" from the ceiling in my garage to store some of those rubbermaid storage bins. The design would be such that the cleat would be around the same height of the shelf and I woul have a kickback from the front of the shelf 45 deg. down to the wall to counter the rotation force on the cleat. the shelves would have to be approx. 20". Has anyone tried something like this before and/or what are your thoughts. I know I can go buy shelf brackets and adjustable tracks at the BORG but I dont want to spend the money and also like the look of the french cleats. not to mention veratility.

Thoughts?

[Cochese]

French cleats work best when the structure puts a wide area of contact on the wall or cleat itself. Cabinets, other items that have either a long longitudinal or lateral component. I don't know how well it would work in your situation, but I'm not saying it can't. I just don't think it's a popular use for it.

You could do it like this, but you'd have to remove the supports any time you wanted to remove the shelf.

[Black wallnut]

I've used a french cleat to hold shop cabinets so in a way it is almost the same in that the cab sides help with the torsional load of the cabinet. My turning chisel rack is more like what you are describing.

[trungdok]

Are those gun stocks on the corner?

[LCHIEN]

I was under the impression that french cleats are for hanging tall objects from walls. That is tall in the vertical dimension compared to the depth. For example, pictures. or tall bookcases.

I would not consider them for items that are approaching 1:1 in height vs. depth. More like for items 2:1 or more in height vs. depth.

your application sounds to me more like a 1:1. Certainly Cochese drawing is 1:1-ish.

One of the advantages of a french cleat is that it is easy to hang the item after the cleats are installed and have it stay there. Lift on, lift off. Cochese's picture has the cleat captured - it cannot fall off but it also must be disassembled to get it on or off.

It appear to me A french cleat works by redirecting the downward force component to push the item towards the wall. You get a large downwards force with a tall item as i described.

With a item with a large overhang, there is also a rotational force from the cantilever which makes the force vector 45 degrees away from the wall and downwards. - this pulls directly on the cleat interface and wants to pull it free from the wall.

With a tall item ratio, its easy to put two or more cleats to spread the load evenly over more than one cleat. With a short item ratio, there is an uneven load due to rotation on the top cleat. Adding more cleats probably helps a lot less.

I hope that makes some sense. Vector diagrams might help...

[Black wallnut]

Are those gun stocks on the corner?

Yes they are.

a used 77-22
a used 1022
a short action Remington that the stock maker gave up on because the barreled action he had was out of spec and was not accurate
and the fourth one a Win 22 that was butchered by a previous owner with most of the butt cut out.

All four are purposed for improving my checkering technique should I ever get the time and ambition. However critics have told me there is nothing wrong with my current checkering......

Maybe someday I'll find a good short action to drop in the stock. It is a rather nice one.

[dbaudo1]

Loring that is great insight, however i do have a few questions.

While the rotational would pull the cleat away from the wall, wouldnt the fastener type determine how detrimental this is? (provided the cleat material can handle the shear stress of the load)

As a second support for the load, my thoughts on the design would be similar to the drawing cochese posted but rather than capturing the cleat, have it freed so that the shelf can be removed. The downward supports would be at a 3/4:1 against the wall (with a 3" ribbon strip I believe it is called) to counter the rotational force as well.

I'm not sure if my description is adequate, if not i could put together a sketch if that would help. Or maybe I should just give it a shot with one cleat and shelf, block the area so the little ones can't get hurt and see what happens.....

am I missing something on the load characteristics?

[Stytooner]

I did a couple quick and dirty french cleats recently for our floating night stands. Similar to BW's rack. The cleat isn't as wide as the cabinet, but only as wide as the insides of the sides.
We had some Granite left over, so I sliced it in half, which made the perfect size for our use. I did something similar, but nicer years ago in our guest bedroom. Those are black lacquer with marble tops. Floating stands are very easy to clean under.

The granite, though small is still pretty heavy.
I could only hit one stud in the wall on either of these, so used a large screw there into the stud and a couple zip it's on the sides to stabilize. It is plenty strong for this use and the larger you make them, the stronger they become.

I really like French cleats.

[gsmittle]

For a while in my shop I had two bench tops anchored to the wall with French cleats. I built a frame which had a long cleat at the top and three open 45° diagonal supports underneath. I mitered the supports at 45° and stuck the pointy ends into a French cleat as well. It was all made of 2x4 (except for the cleat, which was 3/4" ply) and the bench top rested on the frame.

I found it very sturdy and easy to disassemble when I was given a set of cabinets.

g.

[ivwshane]

I used a French cleat to hang my upper laundry room cabinet and that thing is pretty big at 24"d x 32"h x 64"w and I haven't had a single problem yet.

Of course the cleat was hung using long enough screws to reach the studs and I used at least 2 screws every 16" OC and plenty of screws on the cabinet itself.

[Stytooner]

How do you like those appliances? They sure do look very nice. Cabinets too.

[ivwshane]

How do you like those appliances? They sure do look very nice. Cabinets too.

I love them and the wife loves them too!

[dbaudo1]

Thanks for the ideas!

After thinking about this for a while, and trying to finish my mobile stand, I'm going to build a "proto-type" and see if it holds up. The method I am thinking of using is an upside-down version of Cochese's picture with the angle pieces above the shelf rather than below. This will increase head room under the shelf thus taking up less space. I also may use a two cleat system with one near the ceiling and one at the shelf to distribute the load on the cleats.

I'll post pics of a drawing once I get time to create one, and will move forward with the test unit.