Alternate method for hanging cabinets

[cabinetman]

This is sounding more and more like a two man job.... unless one is dead
I can't think of anything easier than building a deadman to sit on top of the laundry equipment, be a lot easier to shim too if its more narrow than the cabinet is wide. Good info! Thanks again. Frameless has quite a few gotchas it seems.

Lets talk about easy. I took a piece of plywood about 10" wide, and about 18" long. I drilled a through hole in the middle, and installed a 1/4-20 "T" nut. I have a few very small floor jacks. I took the saddle off of one, and then using a 1/4-20 bolt, mounted the board on top of the arm, through the old saddle hole.

The jack has about a 15" lift capability. Most of the time I can use just boards under it to take up the slack. Set the jack...position the cabinet on top, jack it up to where you want. Most of the time the board on the jack is towards the front of the cabinet, and the back of the cabinet slides up the wall. You may have to chock the wheels.

We are now into trade secrets...don't tell anyone.

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[chopnhack]

LOL, I promise to keep the secret, That is even easier! I have an old sears jack that is probably close to 35 lbs and a bottle jack. I will have to see if the saddle comes off of the sears unit. That's a great tip, thanks!!

Does this mean you install you base first to use this method or do you also have a rolling cabinet jack? I had thought of building one of these - fairly cheap to make, about $40, the HF winch is probably 1/2 the cost ;P

found at http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...ft_Photos.html

[LCHIEN]

Are you going to have doors on the cabinets, I presume? Here's an idea.
Build each cabinet as a four-sided box similar to what you have shown, except that it will not have a back, the back will be more or less open and use the existing wall as the back of the cabinet as it will be visible when the doors are open. This will gain you almost one inch of interior depth - I.e. 15.75".

Put a cross piece 1x4 across the back. You have to notch the sides to inset the 1x4 flush to the back, like you showed in your design. Screw the 1x4 to the verticals with about three, 3" #8 or #9 FH wood screws on each side, making sure the box is square. Place another one down low. I suggest putting the top one so that it's bottom edge is exactly 12" from the outside top of the box. Having the top cross member lower (12", compared to your design) lessens the chance that the vertical above the cross member will break off under load.The bottom one is not so critical, place it where convenient and not in the way of any shelves you might use. inset it and fasten it the same way as the top cross member.

Now you have a open front and back box which is square and won't rack because of the cross members. THe cross members will bear the load, that's why so many long screws, and 2 cross members. There will be both a shear load and a tensile load on the screws.

To install, screw a 1x4 cleat about 2 inches shorter than the cabinet interior width to the wall so that its top is a hair more than 12" from the top of the ceiling where you want the cabinet to touch. If you are really chicken, add another cleat that will be right below the lower cross member. Now you have one or two wall mounted members on which the box will rest, temporarily.

One more thing, take a 1x2 by 6-8 inches. mark the center of the top wall mounted 1x4 and screw the center of the 1x2 to the 1x4 center, make the 1.5" long screw just tight enoughh so that the 1x2 will rotate by hand but stay in position with friction. Set it horizontal.

Now for the one-man installation. Lift the box up near the ceiling and place the 1x4 cross member over the 1x4 top wall cleat. If you measured wight the top of the box will be against the ceiling and the top cross member will be resting on top of the top cleat and the bottom cross member will be resting on the bottom cleat. Rotate the 1x2 90 degrees so its vertical and it will be holding the box to the wall and keeping it from falling and leave you hands free.

Now being careful because all the box weight is retained by one screw (which is not carrying the weight - that should be borne by the cleats), You should be able to adjust the position right or left as needed. Install screws or lag screws holding the cross members to the wall into studs. Be generous, they'll keep the cabinet from falling off when loaded. I'd use 3" long, 1/4" lag screws with flat washers, about four or eight per cabinet. Drill a 3/16" pilot hole which should be 2"+ into the 2x4 stud edges.

Finally you can remove the two 1x4 temporary cleats below the cross members, the lag screws are holding the weight now. Or if you prefer, you can leave them in, their screws will help share the shear load on the lag screws.

[cabinetman]

LOL, I promise to keep the secret, That is even easier! I have an old sears jack that is probably close to 35 lbs and a bottle jack. I will have to see if the saddle comes off of the sears unit. That's a great tip, thanks!!

Does this mean you install you base first to use this method or do you also have a rolling cabinet jack? I had thought of building one of these - fairly cheap to make, about $40, the HF winch is probably 1/2 the cost ;P

The floor jack I use is a Craftsman. It's a small one. The saddle is just held in place with a stud and a pull out clip...no drilling necessary. I don't use any roll around lifts. I use whatever is there to space up for the jack. It could be the base cabinets just put in place (if there are base cabinets), or you can use the washer and dryer. Putting plywood or a series of plywood pieces to use as spacers work just fine. If you need more height than just a few pieces, make a dead man.

Just some general tips about installation. I don't use "wood screws"...the tapered kind. I find just a coarse thread screw works best. It would be a rare occasion that I wouldn't install a back in a cabinet. They square the cabinet and help hold the box together during handling, delivery and installation.

As for horizontal hang rails, one at the top is all that's necessary. It's easier to maintain the integrity of squareness during installation. Using one at the bottom is not needed if you have the top one screwed to studs. If a cabinet has a bottom one, screwing that one to the wall can throw off the frontal plane of the cabinet. IOW, it can twist the shape of the box as it's drawn to the wall so the doors may not fit properly. That method was used in cases where the installation may be questionable. I wouldn't configure a cabinet that way or suggest it.

You may not have thought of this, but three boxes with square or rectangular shapes installed in an alcove, will leave a void at the bottom where the fronts touch, and the backs go to the wall. If you aren't concerned about it, that's fine. If you are, you have a few options. You can extend one of the floors past the cabinet to fill the void.

Or, you can make a filler piece that will fit flush to the undersides of both cabinets. That would work out to be just a square or a rectangle. It can be made to install from the bottom if short wings are put on the sides of the piece that slide up the outside walls of the two cabinets. Then it can be adjusted and held in place with screws from the inside of the cabinets.

Or, you can make the cabinets open ended where they meet in the corners. IOW, instead of ends just make a vertical post between the top and the bottom (front and back) to carry the hinges. If this is done, either the two side cabinets, or the middle cabinet would have the floors and tops extend to close up the gaps. If configured this way, the corners aren't lost, and can be used for storage. It creates a completely open cabinet from both directions.

Or, extend the ends of one of the cabinets that venture into the corner. That would give extra storage, but those corners may be a bit of a strain to access.

Another tip. Since the cabinets are frameless, there is nothing at the fronts of two mating cabinets to help align the fronts and hold them together. You may want to install a block that runs the height of the vertical connection where two cabinets come together. That would be installed behind and used to align and connect the front vertical corners. Unless the doors are full inset, you have an overlay condition where the edges of the doors are next to eachother.

If you lay out the cabinet configuration on paper, or in full size on a piece of plywood, you can draw a filler strip from the front to create a continuous look other than the vertical spacing between the door edge and the spacer. I suggest doing a drawing full size of the condition to figure door widths, and hinge selection for overlay amounts. In some cases depending on the widths of the legs of the spacer, the two cabinets may be separated to allow for it. Doing this depends on how finished and fitted you want the installation to look.

If you use no spacer at the front, there will be a small void where the two doors meet from different directions.

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[chopnhack]

Thanks for the input guys.
I got pricing on prefinished 1 side white birch in 1/4" of $22, not all that bad dollarwise, but then again its probably imported C grade! I think I will end up using the 1/4" ply cut to fit from edge to edge and top to bottom and either screw or stitch it on with some brad nails for the back.

I have never used the lower screw rail, I always figured it was solely an aide for squaring the box and sometimes you need to shim the bottom out to get the faces of the cabs to plane out. I like your idea Loring of lags and I may do that for my garage cabs, but I think that it may be overkill on the laundry room cabs ;-) I always thought that alot of the support comes not only from the screw, but from the friction between the wall and the upper support as the screw squeezes them into contact. I have used 2 1/2" and 3" screws before - believe it or not deck screws seem to work really well. I have seen square drive wood screws that are not tapered in old installs that I have demo'd and they look really nice. Despite being thin, they seem to have done there job exceptionally well. I will have to try and find some of those.

As for the hang rails, I was honestly going to use 3.5" wide strips of the same 3/4" that I am sure will be left over... why buy additional material if you have scrap, right!

I have seen the backless cabs before and I have never really been a fan of them. Especially down here, you can't give the bugs places to hide! Might end up with a diamond back colony I guess one could always caulk the perimeter to the wall, but I prefer to have a fully enclosed box, good idea and certainly a saver of material! I think that by using a jack or dead man of sorts I can skip the cleat and have a flush back still retaining 15.75" depth.

C-man - your not talking about using drywall screws are you? I didn't mean tapered wood screws only screws meant for wood, the drywall screws seem too weak for wood joining as I have found they tend to snap at the head when torqued.

Believe it or not, I have figured for the filler strips! The sections that will be flush on the bottom side will be doubled up pieces to allow for screwing from inside the cabinet - to allow for the cabinet floor and to not have to drill at an angle leaving an ugly countersunk screw. Thanks for thinking ahead on that most folks completely forget about that detail.

I am a little stumped about the overlay of the doors. I have a 24" unit with two doors going to be joined with a 16" with one door and another 24" with two doors. Its between the left 24" unit that I think I will have the issue. I have never done this before but how hard would it be to do a twin overlay and use a sex bolt to join the two? Will there then be an issue with balancing the reveal between the one 16" door on the right edge and the next 24" unit?
Also, with mdf doors being so poor at screw holding, is there something else I should do at the euro cup area to stiffen the screw insertion area, aside from cya being put into the screw holes? I read something about a plastic insert, but didn't find any more info. I assume it works kind of like a drywall anchor.

[cabinetman]

C-man - your not talking about using drywall screws are you? I didn't mean tapered wood screws only screws meant for wood, the drywall screws seem too weak for wood joining as I have found they tend to snap at the head when torqued.

The box store variety of "drywall type" screws aren't the best. They do seem brittle. If you have to use them (to include case construction), use a cordless on slow speed. It's best to pilot and countersink. Drive them slow, and when close to tight, just bump the trigger to pull them up. Driving them in fast, or until they seat heats up the fastener, and the abrupt stop can pop the heads off.

There are better coarse thread screws. Your common deck screw is better than the black ones at the home centers. If you have a real hardware store, or an outlet that sells "Grabber" screws, you will appreciate the difference.

I am a little stumped about the overlay of the doors. I have a 24" unit with two doors going to be joined with a 16" with one door and another 24" with two doors. Its between the left 24" unit that I think I will have the issue. I have never done this before but how hard would it be to do a twin overlay and use a sex bolt to join the two? Will there then be an issue with balancing the reveal between the one 16" door on the right edge and the next 24" unit?

You might benefit from my constant suggestions of drawing out a condition full size. If you do that, you can plan for a spacer, that would separate the actual corner. It would be a 90° spacer with frontal legs of any width, even ¾" would work well. The front faces would finish at the same frontal plane as the doors. It gives a very finished look without leaving a void. Drawing it out will permit you to configure a similar one for the inside of the two cabinets where they meet which is used as screw cleat to tie the fronts of the two cabinets together. And, if you draw it out you will have the pattern for the void filler bottom to fill that rectangular hole.

Also, with mdf doors being so poor at screw holding, is there something else I should do at the euro cup area to stiffen the screw insertion area, aside from cya being put into the screw holes? I read something about a plastic insert, but didn't find any more info. I assume it works kind of like a drywall anchor.

MDF will hold screws that are installed properly the first time. If you go removing them and reinstalling them, the hole gets compromised. Use my screw installation suggestion. Blum and some other manufacturers sell the same type hinge with plastic dowels and screws intact (looks like this). You would need a jig or a Blum Minipress that bores the cuphole and spur bits (2) bore the hole for the dowels. I use it for high production hinge installations, because there is no measuring or aligning needed for installing the hinge. You just place the hinge and hammer it in. The hinge can still be removed by removing the screws, and the inserts remain in the door. Or, you can buy the dowels and screws separately and drill the holes and use any hinge (like this).

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[chopnhack]

I have used the Grabber brand before, they were marked for wood but my borg no longer carries them. and yes they were way stronger.

I'm not ignoring your good advice, I have laid these out in sketchup, the problem is that I don't have much knowledge with blum hinges.... The info page on the hinges is extensive and sometimes confusing. I was planning on screwing the units directly together and was questioning the balancing of the reveal.

I did find last night some hinges called expando that might work well in mdf. Im still planning so bear with me

[cabinetman]

I'm not ignoring your good advice, I have laid these out in sketchup, the problem is that I don't have much knowledge with blum hinges.... The info page on the hinges is extensive and sometimes confusing. I was planning on screwing the units directly together and was questioning the balancing of the reveal.

I did find last night some hinges called expando that might work well in mdf. Im still planning so bear with me

I'm not suggesting drawing them in Sketchup, but in full size on a scrap piece of plywood or MDF, so you can see exactly what is going on. How did you expect to screw two cabinets together at the front corners without some cleat behind where they come together. If the front corners are that tight, you will have a condition where the doors will be too close together, and there will be a void between them.

As for screwing the hinges, I use a coarse thread flathead phillips #6x⅝", and they hold just fine. Any hinge affording the correct overlay will work. The hinge type isn't conditional on the substrate.

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[chopnhack]

"How did you expect to screw two cabinets together at the front corners without some cleat behind where they come together. If the front corners are that tight, you will have a condition where the doors will be too close together, and there will be a void between them."

I thought it could be done with the half cranked hinges the blum hinge specifier came up with. I think they called it twin overlay and it was shown with two boxes side by side, no space in between. Is this not common with frameless?

"As for screwing the hinges, I use a coarse thread flathead phillips #6x⅝", and they hold just fine. Any hinge affording the correct overlay will work. The hinge type isn't conditional on the substrate."

Since my door will be mdf and I might have issues, I figured getting a hinge with the expanding cup feature would be good insurance. The cup side is what I am worried about that way I don't have stripped out holes.

[cabinetman]

I thought it could be done with the half cranked hinges the blum hinge specifier came up with. I think they called it twin overlay and it was shown with two boxes side by side, no space in between. Is this not common with frameless?

Got a link for that puppy?


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[chopnhack]

Sure do http://www.blum.com/pdf/BUS/excel_cl...ptop_panel.xls

Its an excel spreadsheet, I used 107°, self close, twin overlay, 19 mm door and panel thickness with a 6 or 7 mm reveal. See the picture for twin overlay to see what I was referring to.

[cabinetman]

Sure do http://www.blum.com/pdf/BUS/excel_cl...ptop_panel.xls

Its an excel spreadsheet, I used 107°, self close, twin overlay, 19 mm door and panel thickness with a 6 or 7 mm reveal. See the picture for twin overlay to see what I was referring to.

The twin overlay is for a single divider. What the details show is a partial overlay on each side. That's common for hanging two center doors on a 4 door cabinet with a single divider. They don't work that way for a right angle configuration.

Hinges do not tie the panel together on a right angle, like you will have where the side cabinets meet the back cabinet. You still have to configure a cleat to do that. Capisce?

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[chopnhack]

I see your point on the twin overlay - I didnt catch that its just for a single panel!! But these cabinets will all face the same direction, no right angle just three cabinets mulled together with filler strips on either side where they end up against the walls.

[cabinetman]

I see your point on the twin overlay - I didnt catch that its just for a single panel!! But these cabinets will all face the same direction, no right angle just three cabinets mulled together with filler strips on either side where they end up against the walls.

Well, you got me on this one. Somehow I misunderstood the layout. I took it to be a three wall installation for three cabinets in an alcove, Not one wall in the back with three cabinets. That simplifies the install, and the discussion about the cleats to tie the cabinets together.

All is not lost though. Some of the info I brought up would apply to a three wall install with three cabinets.

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[chopnhack]

Sorry cabinetman, I probably threw ya when I said difficult and u shaped! Thanks for your input, it has been helpful. I will post later the hinges I intend to use, maybe you can tell me if you think they will work out ok. I think the problem area will be in balancing the reveal between the center unit and sides. Not uber crucial, but nice to know.the right way of doing things.