Any licensed electricians out there?

[BadeMillsap]

Texas is where I am if it matters...

I am in the throes of planning for a new workshop ... and everything has been going pretty much as I expected $/budget wise until I started trying to nail down getting electricity to the new shop and then necessary wiring.

I am flabbergasted at the apparent expense involved.

#1 ... Just to get the utility company to 'allow' me to have a 2nd meter on my property was a MAJOR ordeal. Finally after going a couple of rounds with them I got them to agree to string wire 100' across the street ... that is going to cost me $1100 to get a pole set (separate contractor from utility company), $500 to the utility company to string the wire, $700 to buy the meter loop/riser and another $200+ to buy the main breaker/box (200amp) not counting what I have to pay a licensed electrician to actually hook up the loop/breaker to the wire in the riser.

#2 The pole when finally set and hooked up is 200' from where the building will be ... the triplex, buried 4/o AL wire will run me approximately $700 and it will cost me $350 to rent the rock saw I will need to dig the trench to lay the cable in ... the subpanel breaker box on the side of the building is another $400+

So ... if I have this figured right ... just the 'material' to get wire from across the street to the building and into a breaker box is a cool $4000 and that doesn't include even a bare bulb hanging from the ceiling and a switch to turn it on and off ...

I got one "turn key" bid that included everything except I was to supply the 16 3 bulb T8 fluorescent light fixtures and I would dig the trench and pay the $1600 to get the pole set and wire to the riser of $8400

Does $10,000 sound reasonable to anyone to get electricity to a building that will cost me a total of $30,000 otherwise put on an engineered concrete slab? The building is steel, fully insulated, a 10x8 rollup door and a walk in door and 3 windows ...

This electrical cost is completely out of the realm of my expectation.

[woodturner]

Does $10,000 sound reasonable to anyone to get electricity to a building that will cost me a total of $30,000 otherwise put on an engineered concrete slab?

It really has nothing to do with the cost of the building.....

Your material estimates seem high - 200A SP start at $50 or so, for example.

Tell us more about the configuration of the property, where the current service is, etc. There may be a more economical way to do this, but we need more information.

How much time will you spend in the shop? You could buy a rather nice generator that would supply more than enough power for a shop for a few thousand dollars.

[LCHIEN]

I'd consider getting a natural gas powered generator for those prices... if you have a natural gas line nearby. I think 20KW runs around $10K installed. That would run a **** of a big shop. A 10KW might cost half and still be quite reasonable. Even a gasoline generator might be a solution if there's no natural gas available, night have to lug 5 gallon jerry cans but if you only need power when woodworking...

ASide from avoiding paying lots to the power company, you'll have a backup power station on your property when the power goes out...

[nmguy]

Texas is where I am if it matters...

I am in the throes of planning for a new workshop ... and everything has been going pretty much as I expected $/budget wise until I started trying to nail down getting electricity to the new shop and then necessary wiring.

I am flabbergasted at the apparent expense involved.

#1 ... Just to get the utility company to 'allow' me to have a 2nd meter on my property was a MAJOR ordeal. Finally after going a couple of rounds with them I got them to agree to string wire 100' across the street ... that is going to cost me $1100 to get a pole set (separate contractor from utility company), $500 to the utility company to string the wire, $700 to buy the meter loop/riser and another $200+ to buy the main breaker/box (200amp) not counting what I have to pay a licensed electrician to actually hook up the loop/breaker to the wire in the riser.

#2 The pole when finally set and hooked up is 200' from where the building will be ... the triplex, buried 4/o AL wire will run me approximately $700 and it will cost me $350 to rent the rock saw I will need to dig the trench to lay the cable in ... the subpanel breaker box on the side of the building is another $400+

So ... if I have this figured right ... just the 'material' to get wire from across the street to the building and into a breaker box is a cool $4000 and that doesn't include even a bare bulb hanging from the ceiling and a switch to turn it on and off ...

I got one "turn key" bid that included everything except I was to supply the 16 3 bulb T8 fluorescent light fixtures and I would dig the trench and pay the $1600 to get the pole set and wire to the riser of $8400

Does $10,000 sound reasonable to anyone to get electricity to a building that will cost me a total of $30,000 otherwise put on an engineered concrete slab? The building is steel, fully insulated, a 10x8 rollup door and a walk in door and 3 windows ...

This electrical cost is completely out of the realm of my expectation.

------

You need to contact the unility commison on this. I don;t know where you live, butI never heard of a electric utility contracting out for a pole drop and then chagring you $500 to run the conductors to a drop. Is there any chance you can go under ground with this and avoid the pole . if you can, then you can use Tri-plex underground and avoid all the drip loops and service drops. Now you should be able to buy your own equipment Ie. 200 amp box, breakers, etc.

Gosh you really need to talk to the utility commison on and local inspector know as the AHJ ( authority haveing juristiction ) about the utility contracting out the job for the pole drop. not to mention charging you to run the line as well. The poco should not be charing you for the meter either. The meter loop yes, but not the meter.

The norm is if the drop is 100 to 150 feet from the service the POCO ( utility company ) will do this at no charge. like I said call the utility commision first about the utility charging you. As for the electrician that is kind of high, your doing all the hard work for them, if that is the case .

This is nothing but a new service drop and I would price like one. I usually would charge anywhere from from $ 5,300 to 6,100. That if I was digging the ditch and dropping the tri-plex the ground. you dig my cost would be $ 5,300

10K is way, way to much for this job. My reasoning is allot of electricians are out of work. put an ad up on creigslist tell them what the job is , and start taking bids. make they are licenced ( get there lic- number ) as well as bonded. easy to check with the state your in.

[JimD]

Why do you need a separate meter for the shop? Why not just run a panel off the supply to your house? You would still need to run the supply from one to the other, presumably underground, but you would avoid the expense of the pole, meter socket, etc.. I don't know what you plan to have but one 20A 110V + 1 lighting circuit is serving me pretty well. I may add a 220V at some point. A 50A subpanel in the shop powered by the house would run a lot of tools. I can't imagine a 200A load in a shop.

You can't exceed the total load supplied to your house. But we seldom get anywhere close to the total supply to our homes. You should have a main breaker that would prevent you from pulling too much from the line to the house. If you only have 100A to the house you might have to be careful if you will use a welder or something big in the shop. If you have 200A to the house, I can't see how you would be at risk under any reasonable circumstances. The risk is just that you trip the main breaker and shut everything down. That would be inconvenient but it's not like you would burn the house down. Lighting circuits are not where you could have a problem. It's big 220V loads like the dryer, water heater, AC, heat. Your maximum draw would be if all the current large loads were on at the same time and then you also fired up your "big stuff" in the shop.

Jim

[pelligrini]

It seems a little high, but not totally out of line for the new pole and service. I could assume that the utility company would charge for everything since it is an additional service to the property.

What's the reasoning for the second service and meter? Are you looking at getting three phase? Is the service to the residence too small?

[BadeMillsap]

some more detail ...

First thank you for the replies ... it sounds like most of you agree this is sounding high.

For some additional detail ...

I live north of San Antonio ... the "lot" my house and existing shop are on is approx 3.5 acres. I live in the city limits of a small 'village' that requires all kinds of permits to take a deep breath ... the service from the utility company to my house enters on the south end of the house. The existing 200amp meter loop is mounted on the south of the house. My current load includes a water well, a swimming pool two HVAC units, the existing shop and the typical housing lights etc. The electrician that came out with the first bid looked at the panel and existing load and opined that at a minimum the existing service would have to be upped to 425amp (or whatever the typical step is) to support the new shop. OK except to come off the existing service panel I would have to trench thru the concrete porch, across several sprinkler water lines, the main water line to the house from the well AND the septic tank lines running to the field. All of this trenching would be thru a fairly solid rock shelf and be incredibly expensive and disruptive. (aerial isn't really an option because of dense tree canopy coverage). So ... my other option was/is to get a 2nd service drop from the utility company at the north end of the property which is where the new shop will be located to satisfy convenience and the only variance I could get from the HOA.

I am quite literally the northern most service pole on my street that the utility company that serves my house serves ... I own the lots north of me ... a completely different utility company which currently has no service to either of those lots and the HOA won't let me build an 'out building' on them without a primary residence ... sigh ...

The utility company sent a designer out ... he understood the 'need' for a 2nd loop BUT ... the distance from the existing loop to where the shop would be in a direct line ... was outside their 'guidelines' ... we went round and round and I finally got 'approval' for a 2nd loop. The utility company charges $1200 to set a pole on a customers property and an additional $500 to string the wire from the transformer to the loop on that new pole. The designer suggested I contact a 3rd party contractor to set the pole ... he thought their charge was $900 ... however; when I called them with the specs for the pole (35' not the normal 30' and digging the hole in the rock that is my property) the quote was $1100. This would put the new pole/loop just barely within the 100' maximum the utility company would allow. (the $1200 or $1100 to set a pole is apparently now the norm in this area with the two utility companies that serve the area)

The new loop/pole would be approximately 210' in a fairly direct line from the north east corner of the planned new workshop. There are no water/sewer lines to worry about cutting that trench.

I have indeed considered a propane generator as a power source. It seems like the cost would be approximately the same ... and ... to get the added benefit of having an emergency power source for the house ... I am faced with the same wire run difficulties I have running the existing service to the shop.

I am wondering if the city would require the same electrical permit on the building wiring if I use a generator vs the utility company power ... I am perfectly capable of doing the wiring myself but am not a licensed and city registered electrician.

As far as the power requirements in the new building ... I could probably get away with a 100amp service vs 200amp BUT ... I will have a 50amp arc welder, several 220v/30amp machines (saws, sanders, dust collector) and haven't even broached the thought of how I might add heat/cool other than some big fans and perhaps a wood burning stove. I had done some research on light requirement and can get about 70 ft candles with 12 T8 fixtures (4 bulbs) ... all in all I don't want to under power this shop as I did my existing much smaller shop.

I guess I will investigate the actual cost of a generator but have a feeling it's going to be about a wash or maybe even more expensive.

[jseklund]

I ran electrical to my dad's shed about a year ago. I paid a landscaping company $200 to come dig a trench 2 feet deep and about 100 feet long. I then spent about $75 on PVC tubing and ran 4 THHN #10 wires through the tubes to the shed from the back of the house. Once that hit the inside of the house, I put in a junction box, with some #10 romex and ran it inside the house to the electrical panel. By using a double pole breaker in the box and 4 wires, I put a 60A sub panel in the shed, which has a circuit for lights and 2 20 amp circuits...which should be sufficient for a 1 man shop.

Could you do something similar? Upgrade your electrical panel (or run a sub panel) and then run in the house to another area and then out and avoid the porch, lawn, etc.?

Dropping meters tends to be expensive - but your cost does seem high. I'd get more quotes.

[woodturner]

either of those lots and the HOA won't let me build an 'out building' on them without a primary residence

Well, some of us do "live in our shops"

As far as the power requirements in the new building ... I could probably get away with a 100amp service vs 200amp BUT ... I will have a 50amp arc welder, several 220v/30amp machines (saws, sanders, dust collector) and haven't even broached the thought of how I might add heat/cool other than some big fans and perhaps a wood burning stove.

What will you operate at the same time, though? You need enough current (Amps) to operate all the loads you will run simultaneously. NEC allows for derating, based on the assumption that not everything is turned on and maxed out at the same time.

I would calculate the "worst case" load - lights, HVAC, tools you will run simultaneously, etc. - and increase by a "fudge factor" - maybe 20% - to guesstimate the real current requirements. I imagine your cooling load is pretty high down there, so HVAC draw is likely to be significant, but otherwise 100A is likely more than enough. Just for reference, a 10KW portable gas generator (roughly 86A @ 115 VAC) is under $1,000 on Amazon. Stationary propane generators cost more, but unless I was going to use the shop a LOT, I'd opt for gas or diesel. You could probably have a storage tank installed so you didn't have to refill it with small gas cans.

[All Thumbs]

Can 400-amps enter the house where your current 200-amp does now, and then a 200-amp feeder to the shop exit the house at some other location so-as to avoid having to go through the patio and sprinklers?

[LarryG]

I am wondering if the city would require the same electrical permit on the building wiring if I use a generator vs the utility company power ... I am perfectly capable of doing the wiring myself but am not a licensed and city registered electrician.

That struck me as an interesting sub-question within the overall dilemma, so I passed it on to our electrical engineering consultant who makes his living dealing with this stuff. In addition to the permit question, I also asked whether the requirements of the National Electrical Code would apply, even though the building would not be open to the public or connected to the grid. He says Yes, to both. You'd have to get a permit (complete with all the usual inspections) and you'd have to comply in all respects with the NEC.

[wardprobst]

I'd also suggest investigating a wind or solar generator and supplement with the propane.
DP

[JimD]

I would also worry about the insurance implications on wiring but I did my basement and I am not licensed. In many areas, there is an exception for a person working on their own house. The primary work is running the wires so you might also get a friendly electrician to let you run the wires and thus just inspect and possibly hook up. I know a guy who works where I do who also is not a licensed electrician and he wired his last two houses, both large expensive properties. He got inspections and everything. Depends on the rules where you live.

It may be best to up the panel and electrician that recommended it knows more of your situation than I do but I would add up the simultaneous loads. Your bill will tell you the kw hrs you've used. If you divide that by the number of hours in the billing period you will get the kilowatts. If you divide by 120 you would have the amps if it was all 120 load (which it isn't). I'll bet on average you are closer to 50A than 200A. But you have to allow for the maximum so you need to consider the HVAC units all being on at once in addition to things like a hot water heater and dryer and range. I still don't think that will be close to 200A.

An example of why actual is less than theoretical may help. Bathroom circuits are 20A so you can run a hair dryer. I have 4 bathrooms. I've never seen a 20A hair dryer. I live by myself at the moment so nobody is running any hair dryers in my house. I'm sized for 80A of hair dryer load but I'll never see it. Lighting is similar. 15A circuits carrying an amp or two.

Last example, if I punched the buttons correctly, your electricity bill would be about $8,640/mth if you pulled 200A all month. The ratio between that and your actual maximum bill tells you about what fraction of your maximum load you really use, on average. You must size by peak but when the average is this much lower than the peak it gives you and idea that something might be possible.

Jim

[toolguy1000]

First thank you for the replies ... it sounds like most of you agree this is sounding high.

For some additional detail ...

I live north of San Antonio ... the "lot" my house and existing shop are on is approx 3.5 acres. I live in the city limits of a small 'village' that requires all kinds of permits to take a deep breath ... the service from the utility company to my house enters on the south end of the house. The existing 200amp meter loop is mounted on the south of the house. My current load includes a water well, a swimming pool two HVAC units, the existing shop and the typical housing lights etc. The electrician that came out with the first bid looked at the panel and existing load and opined that at a minimum the existing service would have to be upped to 425amp (or whatever the typical step is) to support the new shop. OK except to come off the existing service panel I would have to trench thru the concrete porch, across several sprinkler water lines, the main water line to the house from the well AND the septic tank lines running to the field. All of this trenching would be thru a fairly solid rock shelf and be incredibly expensive and disruptive. (aerial isn't really an option because of dense tree canopy coverage). So ... my other option was/is to get a 2nd service drop from the utility company at the north end of the property which is where the new shop will be located to satisfy convenience and the only variance I could get from the HOA.

I am quite literally the northern most service pole on my street that the utility company that serves my house serves ... I own the lots north of me ... a completely different utility company which currently has no service to either of those lots and the HOA won't let me build an 'out building' on them without a primary residence ... sigh ...

The utility company sent a designer out ... he understood the 'need' for a 2nd loop BUT ... the distance from the existing loop to where the shop would be in a direct line ... was outside their 'guidelines' ... we went round and round and I finally got 'approval' for a 2nd loop. The utility company charges $1200 to set a pole on a customers property and an additional $500 to string the wire from the transformer to the loop on that new pole. The designer suggested I contact a 3rd party contractor to set the pole ... he thought their charge was $900 ... however; when I called them with the specs for the pole (35' not the normal 30' and digging the hole in the rock that is my property) the quote was $1100. This would put the new pole/loop just barely within the 100' maximum the utility company would allow. (the $1200 or $1100 to set a pole is apparently now the norm in this area with the two utility companies that serve the area)

The new loop/pole would be approximately 210' in a fairly direct line from the north east corner of the planned new workshop. There are no water/sewer lines to worry about cutting that trench.

I have indeed considered a propane generator as a power source. It seems like the cost would be approximately the same ... and ... to get the added benefit of having an emergency power source for the house ... I am faced with the same wire run difficulties I have running the existing service to the shop.

I am wondering if the city would require the same electrical permit on the building wiring if I use a generator vs the utility company power ... I am perfectly capable of doing the wiring myself but am not a licensed and city registered electrician.

As far as the power requirements in the new building ... I could probably get away with a 100amp service vs 200amp BUT ... I will have a 50amp arc welder, several 220v/30amp machines (saws, sanders, dust collector) and haven't even broached the thought of how I might add heat/cool other than some big fans and perhaps a wood burning stove. I had done some research on light requirement and can get about 70 ft candles with 12 T8 fixtures (4 bulbs) ... all in all I don't want to under power this shop as I did my existing much smaller shop.

I guess I will investigate the actual cost of a generator but have a feeling it's going to be about a wash or maybe even more expensive.

sounds like your options are limited. start calling electricians and have them quote the job as you want it done, so you are comparing apples to apples. when they say "you don't want" something you've specified, have them give you 2 quotes. the one to your specs and the one they feel you should get. compare, compare, compare. i got over 20 quotes to roof and side our house and detached garage. i got a great job at a really good price by learning as much as i could about the project through the RFP process i undertook. based on the parameters you noted above, it sounds like you're going to hav to write a fairly sizeable check. the only way to make sure you're not overpaying is to increase the sample size from which you choose the contractor. good luck.

[pelligrini]

Check with the utility company too. Around here, the electric company has to use an approved third party contractor for some work like that.