Dust/Chips - What to do?

[Cochese]

I touched a bit on this in my shop thread, but I wanted to get your thoughts just on this issue.

If you've read my thread, you'll know I'm dealing with a tiny 12x12 space where I share space with various household goods. I roll the saw outside, as I do with the planer (which is missing the dust hood, BTW - didn't realize this when I bought it). The drill press obviously stays inside and I do all my routing inside. The miter saw currently goes outside as well.

Now, I'll be making a table for the MS and planer (the Ultimate Tool Stand I posted about), and will probably be using those inside for awhile until I get some ground leveled out. The dust chute will be bought for the planer, and I'll figure something out for the MS. The problem I have right now isn't so much dust in the air, it's the mess on my floor, and in the case of the planer and table saw, on the ground outside. I have this patch of ground that's covered in a few mm of sawdust. I'd rather not continue this practice.

I have two issues here - dust on the outside, and dust inside. Note when I say dust, I'm referring to dust, chips, etc. Not just particulate matter.

The first question is a simple one - if I were to have a dust collector of any kind hooked to a machine, but not on, would that hurt the machine in question? I know you can use dust bags on most things, but I wasn't sure if there was any difference in pressure or such involved that would cause any damage. The reason I ask is that unless I run an additional extension cord from off of another circuit (which would be near 100ft) I wouldn't be able to have the DC running at the same time. But once I'm done I could turn it on, clear the line, and not have any mess

The second question is to see about adding some equipment to deal with the mess. The router table generally stays in one spot, but is mobile. The drill press isn't going anywhere. The downdraft table (on the UTS with the MS and planer) will be mobile, but will probably be used in one spot if at all possible. Right now I have a 6gal, 3.0HP Shop Vac, with a dust separator on the inbound side. It's done fairly well, but it's bulky and tedious. They sit under a table, and I have to route it behind the table and onto the router table, then disconnect it, unfurl it, and take the end to where I need it next. That I don't like. I'd like to have some way of having a port in the three places I need them. I had considered getting some 2.5" clear straight pipe to run up from the separator, then branch to the stations. Obviously, no matter what I do I'll need blast gates. I just don't know if I could get the pull I need to clear the debris.

Now, I've read what the differences are between a true DC and a vacuum system. I'm also aware of the CFM needed in an ideal situation thanks to Bill. But I'm also looking for other thoughts.

- Would using that straight clear pipe over the course of say, a 4-6' run tops, be sufficient to clear the debris?

- I could upgrade my shop vac to something with a bit more power, but I don't know if that would make a difference. Some say no.

- I could conceivably upgrade to one of the smaller DC units. I'll never fit a full size one, and even the portable ones would probably be pushing it. The Rockler wall mount one might work, or either of the two HF portable ones might. Basically anything large and more than 15amps isn't going to be an option, probably ever. But something smaller and something that doesn't draw as much of a load might be an option, assuming I can get a second source of power out to my shed. But if I couldn't run it and the big tools at the same time, I'm back at that first question - would it damage anything?

[thrytis]

What about something like the Steel City mini dust collector. It is only 2.6 amps, so you might be able to run it at the same time as your other machines. It isn't going to catch all of the fine dust, but since all your big dust generators are used outside, you're mostly interested in chip collection.

[pelligrini]

In response to your main question, it depends. It depends a lot on the amount of debris that is being made. A planer will generate a lot of chips, very quickly. A 2 1/2" hose would fill in seconds and back up into the machine. A few times I forgot to turn on my DC when working on the router table caused a lot of chips to clog the inlet at the fence pretty quickly too.

The dust bag for the BT works pretty well. I used it a lot for chip collection before I got my DC.

My planer has a powered dust port. I picked up the dewalt dust bag that fits on top of a trashcan for it because I was choking the grass out with all the woodchips.

[woodturner]

The first question is a simple one - if I were to have a dust collector of any kind hooked to a machine, but not on, would that hurt the machine in question?

I can't think of a reason it would hurt it, but it would not work well - you really need to collect the dust as it is generated.

I'm also aware of the CFM needed in an ideal situation thanks to Bill. But I'm also looking for other thoughts.

I'm curious what CFM was suggested. In my experience, if you are going to capture planer chips and really get them all, you need in the range of 1600 CFM. That's a good size dust collector.

Would using that straight clear pipe over the course of say, a 4-6' run tops, be sufficient to clear the debris?

I'm not a fan of plastic pipe in any form for dust collection, due to the explosion issues. If you do use plastic, it should at least be grounded - that helps somewhat.

[Cochese]

I can't think of a reason it would hurt it, but it would not work well - you really need to collect the dust as it is generated.



I'm curious what CFM was suggested. In my experience, if you are going to capture planer chips and really get them all, you need in the range of 1600 CFM. That's a good size dust collector.



I'm not a fan of plastic pipe in any form for dust collection, due to the explosion issues. If you do use plastic, it should at least be grounded - that helps somewhat.

There wasn't anything suggested directly at me, I got the figures it looks like you've seen as well. I know I'll never approach that where I'm living now.

As far as plastic goes, that is by far the majority of what I've seen offered for sale. As an aside, I do not have what I have now grounded. Wasn't sure it was needed. For a DC, sure - but even then I must confess I'm not sure what difference I give to one and not the other.

I did look briefly at the Steel City one, and the reviews on Amazon are rather poor. Not to mention the universal motor. The 31810 at HF is at least induction. I'm not married to anything right now except how big it can't be. And how much power it draws. And I'd obviously like to pay less than more.

I'm wondering at this point should I just keep going with the vacuum route, since I'm more looking to get the bigger stuff.

[pelligrini]

You're probably best served using the vac until you can get proper power for a DC. I do understand your problem. I ended up running a second extension cord from another nearby circuit in addition the the one off the back porch to run my vac and a tool.

I wouldn't worry about any static issues or explosions in your situation. A home shop can't really produce the quantity of fine dust and keep it suspended in the air for it to combust from a static discharge.

Tool damage is unlikely, I think there would be more of a safety concern, especially with the router table. The times my table backed up I was getting a lot of debris falling back into the bit area and work surface.

Remember, you don't have to just go up and over with any of your hard piped runs to your vac. With our sheds we can go out a wall easily or under the floor. I had a blast gate and fitting on the front wall of my shop so I could run the noisy vac outside.

Check out rocklers dust right hoses too. I use a 4" one on my DC and it is great. Goes from a little over 3' storage out to a 20' stretch.

[LCHIEN]

some of the issues:
I often run a tool for a quick cut w/o turning on the DC. That tosses a handful fo dust in the toolbowels and a bit into the flex hose. I figure this will all eb sucked up next time i run the machine with the DC on. Now, I would only do this for a small amount and its also dependent on the machine. A TS I could make a number of quick cuts an not worry but a few seconds with a planer or jointer could jam up the hose to where it couldn't be sucked out when turned back on - a not pleasant task to clear. If you continued to run a machine after the chips clogged up the pipes, then the guts of the machine would fill up eventually stopping the cutters and stalling the machine ultimately burning up the motor if continued.

I'm OK with plastic pipes for DC - the dangers of explosion or fire is "blown" out of proportion - I think its been debunked to my satisfaction anyway. Your tools should always be grounded anyway.

The CFMs of a DC does two things for you: One, it keeps particles in air suspension in the ducts by keeping up a certain threshold of velocity, this is to keep chips moving along and not settling in the piping (velocity = CFM/cross section area). The other thing it does for you is to capture all the fines at the source. the more CF, the wider the pickup radius at the inlet. So anyway a 750, 1000, or 1500 CFM DC is going to do a lot better job than a vac which if I recollect is good for something around 100-200 cfm. And it will certainly help keep the lines from clogging. The main caveat is that a Vac can put up more suction pressure to overcome lossy hoses. If the hose/piping is too long or too narrow, then the CFMs will fall rapidly for the DC, less so for the vac.

[Cochese]

I think I may stay on the cheap side and stick with the Shop Vac. Although that's a relative term, as buying extra hoses for that thing is outrageous. Still don't know what I'm doing for storage of it, and routing. Going under the shed or outside of it isn't an option.

Even the reducers add up after awhile.


Would using a bag instead of a hose work better on the planer? Since I don't have a chute right in front of me I don't know how they are ejected (straight to the side of the chute or in a spiral towards the exit point). I may have to rig up a funnel of some sort and have it get out of the way that way. Right now it just spits straight out the outfeed side. Perhaps I'll make something out of PVC, but then I start getting up to buying a real chute pricing.

[Lonnie in Orlando]

I used a shop vac with some of my tools before I got my DC. But the shop vac could not keep up with my planer. So I hooked it to the "suck" side of my leaf blower with the leaf bag. I connected the planer to the blower with 4" dryer vent hose. Worked like a charm.

- Lonnie

EDIT: My planer has a factory 4" port. I've seen pix of planers with HVAC outlets used as dust ports. Rectangular on one end; round on the other. But that may cost as much as a factory dust port (?)

[woodturner]

I wouldn't worry about any static issues or explosions in your situation. A home shop can't really produce the quantity of fine dust and keep it suspended in the air for it to combust from a static discharge.

The requirement for an explosion is that the ratio of fine dust to air has to be in a particular range. Given that ratio and an ignition source (which can be the friction of the particles, but more commonly is static electricity), an explosion can occur. Quantity of dust is largely immaterial - recall the high school chemistry experiment where they demonstrate the explosive potential of dust with a candle, one gallon paint can, and a teaspoon of tannic acid.

A friend had such an explosion. He was using white 3" sch 40 PVC pipe, ungrounded. It shattered the pipe but otherwise did minimal damage, and he was not hurt.

I used to have a shop vac that had a hard plastic hose that seemed particularly prone to build up static electricity. When I used it to vacuum fine wood dust, it would make "wooshing" sounds from time to time that, in retrospect, may have been small explosions.

It's pretty simple to ground PVC, and a good precaution, IMHO. One way is to drill a hole at each end and run a piece of bare copper wire along the pipe, passing through the holes at each end to connect over the joints. Another way is to just wrap the pipe with a copper wire.

In my shop, I use round metal ductwork for the DC piping. It's inexpensive, easily grounded, and doesn't shatter if a wood chunk, stray fastener, or stray tool hits it at high velocity.

[woodturner]

The CFMs of a DC does two things for you: One, it keeps particles in air suspension in the ducts by keeping up a certain threshold of velocity, this is to keep chips moving along and not settling in the piping (velocity = CFM/cross section area). The other thing it does for you is to capture all the fines at the source. the more CF, the wider the pickup radius at the inlet. So anyway a 750, 1000, or 1500 CFM DC is going to do a lot better job than a vac which if I recollect is good for something around 100-200 cfm. And it will certainly help keep the lines from clogging. The main caveat is that a Vac can put up more suction pressure to overcome lossy hoses. If the hose/piping is too long or too narrow, then the CFMs will fall rapidly for the DC, less so for the vac.

Static pressure may also be an issue. The DC I use is 1600 CFM at 11" of static pressure . It will suck chisel through the hose, if I am not careful and leave it too close to the inlet. The static pressure is a measure of suction - high CFM keeps the material moving in the pipe, but the static pressure provides the "power" to allow the chips and dust to be collected.

[woodturner]

Would using a bag instead of a hose work better on the planer?

Planers tend to make shavings and minimal dust. For years before I had the dust collector, I just swept up the shavings after using the planer.

Most other tools produce more dust and less shavings, and as a result don't required the CFM and static pressure a planer does. A fairly modest DC would work fine for just a table saw, drill press, sander, band saw, etc. Maybe even a jointer, though a jointer typically does need higher CFM.

[Cochese]

1.25" for vacuum, 2.5" for ?? and 4" for DC.

I was looking around at Rockler the other day and trying to figure out what the middle size is for. Everything for a vac has to step up to the 2.5" size for some reason.

Like my router table port. Made for 2.5". I have an adapter to step it down so I can use the vacuum. I assume this is because my vac doesn't have enough juice to pull through 2.5" tube?

And as for ports, is it safe to go with the 2.5" ports and step up or down with adapters either way?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm trying to figure out which way I should go.

[pelligrini]

Most medium to big shop vacs use the 2.5". I try to keep the hose as big and short as I can, and use tapered reducers when necessary.

[Cochese]

Thanks. Thinking about asking for the Rockler wall mount collector for Christmas. I bet by then I could make room for it.

I'd love to have the HF one, but it's way too big.