Dust Collectors

**dbhost** · 08-17-2008, 12:22 AM

Depends on your shop vac setup. Mine works fine for what I am doing... BUT...

I have read countless threads on this subject, and the performance of the HF dust collector is WELL worth the $$ if you are going with a full DC setup. However don't bother paying the extra premium for the 5 micron bag, instead rig it with one of the Wynn Environmental 35A cartridge filters. The basics of the DC system are all more or less the same, and the HF unit develops pretty good suction for several machines at once, but the O.E. bag reduces efficiency a great deal like pretty much any bag type DC unit.

The Wynn 35A (paper seems to be the most popular) is a great filter for improving filtration (1 micron for Poly spun, .5 micron for paper) while reducing airflow resistance. A win / win situation.

Watch the sales, the HF 2HP Dust Collector has been known to go down to about $129.00, and if you can find it for that price, and tack on a 20% off coupon, you will be able to add the Wynn filter, and still be around the cost of a 20+ micron filtration Delta....

**LCHIEN** · 08-17-2008, 12:46 AM

I don't believe that a trash can cyclone is an effective thing to add. If the DC has good airflow and working properly it will suck the trash can empty./ If the DC is choked off by inadequate piping, small openings, or bad filters, then the trash can will appear to be doing something, but in reality you have a poorly performing system.

As for collecting stuff the convenient and pretty thing to do is to collect all the chips and visible dust. However, the healthy thing you want to do is collect most all the fine invisible dust down to about 1 micron. The rwo aims are compatible, but does require good filter bags and solid aiflow engineering all the way through the system.

As for the HF DC, I do have one (Equipped with a pleated paper canister filter), but have been repeatedly disappointed by independent comparison tests I have seen in several magazines in which its performance CFM-wise was pretty poor. There are other ones out there and its poor CFM performance makes the HF much less of a bargain in my mind for collecting the fine dust. (You want a lot of CFM at the tool to suck in the fine dust which otherwise would disperse.)

**cgallery** · 08-17-2008, 08:33 AM

Loring is right when it comes to conventional separators. But the design I introduced last November is radically different. The specially shaped baffle will prevent scrubbing by even the most powerful DC's, and the baffle allows my separator design to handle much of the finest dust.

My suggestion is to get a good DC with a cartridge filter and add my baffle to the ring of the DC. Adding the baffle will provide two positives: (1) Dust will be deposited in the bottom bag, and stay out of the cart. filter. (2) Your unit will run considerably quieter. No more noisy churning of the debris in the bag. Numerous users at Woodnet and SawMillCreek have implemented the baffle in their single-stage ring and their postings confirm this. Not a single naysayer.

My next suggestion is to build a pre-separator with my baffle and add it before the jointer/planer. Those two guys output the vast majority of the bulky chips, and won't suffer any consequencies of the CFM hit a separator will introduce. The benefit is that you'll be able to easily empty the garbage can while you're preparing rough stock. If you prepare rough stock you may fine yourself emptying the can a number of times during a single projects, and emptying the can is much easier than emptying a bag on the DC.

So the solution I propose allows you to maintain the highest CFM for items like your table saw and bandsaw, where the super fines are generated, and still give you an easy to empty soluition for the bulk of the debris.

You get 90% of the results of a cyclone, at a fraction of the cost. In more densely populated areas you can find quite good deals on used single-stage DC's on craigslist. I had communication with a user that found a 2HP single-stage Grizzly that had done well in the reviews. He got it for $150 with a plugged cart. filter. He added my baffle and after using it for a month found barely any debris in his filter, and no perciptible reduction in CFM. He complained the bags were still too expensive and hard to empty, so I had him build the pre-separator for his jointer/planer (just like I'm suggesting to you).

The last I heard from him a friend of his had commented on how quiet it is compared to the friend's cyclone. Half the noise, and almost all the performance. How can you beat that?

Here are some comments by people that have implemented the baffle. You can find a lot more at woodnet.net and sawmillcreek.org.

*****
From David Romano (at www.cgallery.com/smf):
To test the effectiveness of the baffle, I did something that I thhought would normally clog the canister. Having previously milled alot of Ipe and then cleaned the pleats of the canister the best I could, the inside of the canister was clean and yellow in color. So I took a 1x6 pine board, 5 feet long and milled on the jointer from a thickness of 3/4" to only 3/16". It made alot of white shavings that should be very easy to see.

After milling the board, I carefully took off the canister expecting it to dump a bunch of sawdust on my shoes, but I was amazed that there was hardly a spec of pine sawdust in it! The 4th photo is shows the inside of the canister after the test.

*****
From Greg Cole (at sawmillcreek.org):
Added the "Phil Special" baffle to my Jet DC1200CK this Saturday morning. Spent about an hour cleaning the filter to as clean as it'll ever be....
Spent the rest of Saturday jointing mahogany & curly maple stock for a bed project.... progressed through some resawing, re-jointing, planing and ripping to make S4S boards.

After about 12 hours of usage over 2 days with the added baffle, there was all of about 2 hand fulls of fines in the filter!!! No real chips from jointing or planing. The mahogany dust from resawing is a good test as it's bright red. The resawed mahogany dust would have previously caked up the filter to where I'd have to have spent another hour cleaning it to get the DC back to decent flow.

Seriously, a piece of scrap MDF and a couple of minutes while ya have your DC apart will give more benefit to keeping the DC's performance up than you can imagine!

Thanks for sharing your ingenious solution Phil!!!

*****
From Mike Goetzke (at sawmillcreek.org):
The dust residue (laying on top of the DC ring and baffle plate) is what came out of the cartridge filter. From my past experience, I got maybe 10x that amount w/o the baffle.

*****
More from David Romano (at sawmillcreek.org):
I have a Jet DC 1200, with the cartridge from Wynn and Phil's baffle built right into my separator ring. It works like a charm. No chips go into the canister, only some fine dust, which is unavoidable even with a good cyclone.
...
The original design is a trash can style pre-separator, but I built the baffle right into the DC ring and my canister is as clean as a whistle. Others have done the same thing with equally great results. This configuartion does not "pre" separate though, so I still can't suck up screws, nuts or big chunks of wood. You will lose some airflow of course, we don't know how much, but it has to be alot less than you would if the cansister pleats were stuffed with sawdust. This baffle is a must have.

*****
From George Lesniak (at ncwoodworker.net):
Before the baffle mod, every time I used the collector I needed to give the filter cleaner few spins to pop the dust loose from the filter pleats. I experimented by sucking about a 1/4 of a bag of sawdust into the collector and took the filter off to check it. There was NO significant dust in the filter! Only a slight colored residue of mahogany. Seems to work quite well. I'll keep you all updated as I use it more.

*****
From Mike (at woodnet.net):
I'm working on a futon made of red oak I milled from rough sawn lumber. I filled a bag of dust from my jointer/planer/TS/BS/ROS and drum sander. The bag had 22.9# of dust and the cartridge had 6.3 oz.. Only 1.7% of the dust found the filter:

I don't notice any performance difference right after I clean the filter, although, I'm sure there are some losses due to the baffle. But, I don't see the performance drop off like it used to as the plastic bag fills - I didn't even feel the need to rotate the pleat flapper for this entire bag full.

*****
From Miser (at woodnet.net):
I couldn't wait for the weekend so worked into the wee hours last night and built Phil's baffle for my DC1100. I've done some testing but can't quantify any changes in air velocity or air volume impacts (positive or negative) with the baffle in place.

BUT, I can say only a small fraction of the dust is making it up to the filter after the addition. What a tremendous change!

There's little cyclonic air movement in the bag. I was planing and jointing soft maple this afternoon (about 20 bd ft of 4/4) The chips and dust floated to the bottom of the bag (as in a gentle snow fall.) This made me somewhat skeptical as I thought the majority of it MUST be moving up to the filter...it wasn't. Without the cyclic air movement, the collector itself is MUCH quieter (no waste material shooshing around the bag.)
Here's a shot of the filter before the mod and another of the donut holding all the junk (I hadn't cleaned it for quite awhile but the debris collects quickly at the filter. I used a leaf blower to clean the filter...let there be light!)

What a great addition. The filter will stay cleaner longer, emptying the bag is easier and significantly less messy and it's quieter. I no longer have the same contempt for this DC. Now, I believe I'll hard-pipe it in and upgrade to a 12" impeller (one of these years.)
Phil, Thanks for the design!

*****
From Alan (at woodnet.net)
I admit I was initially skeptical, but having made one I now think that every single-stage DC should be equipped this way. That's assuming it hurts airflow as little as it appears to.

**poolhound** · 08-17-2008, 09:48 AM

I have the delta 50-760 that you mentioned and I think its great. I did a lot of background research including various emails with the editor at Wood Magazine who oversaw the DC test they did (earlier this year I think). The 50-760 came out on top in this midrange test.

My dillema seems similar to yours. I dont have a dedicated shop but my convertible garage works out at approx 550 sqft. Before I got the DC there was always a fine film over everything and I had more than once breathed in more than I should because my shopvac just couldnt cope.

I was considering wether to get a bigger unit so I could duct it. In the end I decided on the 5-760 and it is no hassle moving it around and hooking it up as needed. It easily copes with both my planer and jointer has a 1 micron bag as standard and the plastic removeable/disposeable bag is great. I have had it for about 6 months and am coming close to filling my second bag.

I have considered a separator but I am not sure I really need it. I agree with CG that it might be helpful when you are doing bulk planing/jointing but if all I have to do is change the bag 2 or 3 times a year I can live with that.

**jackellis** · 08-17-2008, 10:02 AM

I expect to (finally) have a vehicle I can use to move tools, equipment and lumber and it turns out someone is selling a PS Industries DC-2 for $120. I'm uninterested if the motor is 1/2 HP as the ad says, but if it's really 1.5 HP, then I'll be all over it. Shop vac is OK for the jointer but it's useless for my TS and especially for my planer. But that's going to be a temporary solution.

I'd still be interested in opinions on specific machines. Loring appears to be unimpressed with the HF unit and he's pretty clear about why. any opinions on

**Knottscott** · 08-17-2008, 10:48 AM

As far as the DC's go, it seems that the HF unit is a decent value for bare minimum performance, but some of the other units do offer some advantages that may pay dividends now and down the road. For starters, the HF DC has an overstated motor...closer to 1.5hp than 2hp. It also has a smaller impeller than some of the other units, which in turn means it won't move as much air, so it has less potential in a more elaborate setup. A couple of minor points - the HF DC can't be run on 220v AFAIK, and it's switch is prone to an early and sudden death...a more fixable issue than the impeller size and lack of 220v conversion.

Food for thought if you're looking for justification for spending more on a Griz, Delta, Jet, JDS, etc.

**dbhost** · 08-17-2008, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by jackellis

...Shop vac is OK for the jointer but it's useless for my TS and especially for my planer. But that's going to be a temporary solution.

I'd still be interested in opinions on specific machines. Loring appears to be unimpressed with the HF unit and he's pretty clear about why. any opinions on

I'm not sure why, but I have not experienced the same results as you with a shop vac setup. My Ridgid 12 gallon Wet / Dry Vac plumbed to a Shop Vac Sawdust Collection System pulls fine from the TS, Planer, Router Table, and Band Saw. I do find it lacking for the extreme dust production of the hand held sanders, but it works great on my Ridgid Oscillating Sander. The problem with my hand sanders may be with the dust collection layout of the specific sander (Skil 5" orbital) that I am using...

I don't yet own a jointer (coming soon!) so I can't say how the shop vac DC setup will work with that....

I think some folks may misunderstand my tendency toward the shop vac DC system. I am not arguing that it is the end all be all. But if space, and budget constraints are an issue for you, a shop vac DC will provide adequate performance, and the advantage of less weight to move around to empty the waste container if that is a concern.

The disadvantages are much lower CFM than a real Dust Collector, on the high end I believe you might manage about 600 CFM, but many vacs can't produce that much, noise level, a shop vac of any sort is much noisier than a proper DC.

I think there will always be a raging debate about the HF DC unit, just use the forums search function and look for HF DC and you will find tons of threads, no need to go through it again here. They are good, bad, and ugly like every other solution on the market. Yes they have their weak points, like every other manufactured product, but they can be a good way into a good dust collection system on a budget. The switches on HF equipment are notoriously bad, but then again so are the switches on the BT are known to blow out as well... The choice is your as to make and model. And those that will knock you for your choice, well it's not their shop is it? As long as you set up a rig that keeps the area clean, and healthy who cares what someone says about your choice of brand A, B, C, or D. Ford vs. Chevy, vs. Dodge... You know the whole routine.

Unless your DC of choice has a good 1 micron / HEPA filter installed, you will want one. You would be better off picking up a same brand, let's say 2HP 20 micron bag model, than the same brand 2HP 5 micron bag model for more money, because you really should chuck the bag, and install a 1 micron or less canister, or bag. And I have heard that the 1 micron bags restrict flow really badly. No personal experience here...

As far as overstated motor HP goes, that is NOT a HF specific issue. Look at CFM ratings instead. Delta, Hitachi, HF, Grizzly, etc.. on one item or another have all been accused of overstating HP ratings on their motors...

Best of luck, and remember to pick up what you are most comfortable with, enjoy it, and most of all, be safe!

**cork58** · 08-17-2008, 07:55 PM

Thanks for your question! I have a 50-750 delta and WILL be adding Phil's baffle! Like mine with my Jet AFS-1000B as backup. You will need to think about what does not get to the DC. I took a flashlight, turned off the lights, and looked at my air in the shop after a couple of hours work. What I saw shocked me! I'm thinking all that is going in my lungs. Not all wood is good to breathe in all conditions. Since I installed the air filtration as well as the DC my shop is much more cleaner. I change the filter about as often as the furnace in the house now.

Just my thoughts,

Cork

**LarryG** · 08-18-2008, 09:34 AM

I have the (in)famous HF 2HP unit equipped with a Wynn filter and plumbed to 4" PVC piping and will basically echo Loring's and Scott's (Dustmight) comments. It's okay. I'd like something better.

A lot depends on what your dust collection goals are. Do you want to keep a cleaner shop, or do you want to protect your lungs? IIRC, the HF actually moves only somewhere around 550 CFM. That's just about one-third of the claimed 1600 CFM capacity. Even so, my setup definitely makes all the chips and most of the heavier dust go away (apart from problem tools like the CMS). And I can assure you too that adding the Wynn filter and connecting the machine to hard ducting, with as much flexible hose gotten out of the system as practical, made a HUGE difference. But even with these mods it still can't capture the fines that over time will endanger one's respiratory health. Almost any DC unit (or even a shop vac) will reduce the amount of sweeping you have to do but if you want serious dust collection, you are probably looking at a 3HP motor and 6" mains and an honest 1000-1200 CFM, measured at the inlet pipe, as a minimum. And that's going to cost you some serious money -- not only for the unit itself but also for the plumbing.

Much of the HF unit's popularity stems from the days when, by combining a sale price and a coupon, it could be bought for around $120 (I think a few members did even better). In those days anything reasonably comparable cost nearly twice as much. Now that the typical on-sale price of the HF is $169-179, it's not the value it once was. Also, when I look at the cost of the complete system -- filter, blast gates, fittings, pipe, hoses -- the additional cost for a unit capable of moving more air would not have been all that much money, big picture-wise. Lastly, as Loring suggests, few if any of us realized how overstated the HF's CFM spec was and is. I think most members were probably like me and thought, "Okay, it's rated at 1600 CFM, but everyone knows these numbers are always inflated ... but even if it's moving half as much air, that's still 800 CFM and that's not too bad."

So I guess I am saying is that if given a do-over, I'd spend more to get a bigger impeller and more real-world airflow. How much more money, I'm not sure. As a bare minimum I'd spend the ~$320 on the Delta 50-760. I might spend even more than that.

Dust Collectors

Dust Collectors

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