Shop-Vac as DC in small shop

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  • LCHIEN
    Internet Fact Checker
    • Dec 2002
    • 21076
    • Katy, TX, USA.
    • BT3000 vintage 1999

    #31
    Niki, you said "As I noticed, all the 120V machines/tools in USA have a maximum of 15A that is 1800W."

    While a 15A circuit is the most prevalent standard circuit in the USA there are 20A circuits that are, uh, not uncommon. They are quite frequently found in commercial and industrial facilities and sometimes in residences for kitchen and garage use where higher amperage equipment might be used. The connectors for 20Amp cicuits are, well differnent. Where the normal 120V 15A outlets NEMA type 5-15 have parallel vertical slots and the plugs have parallel vertical blades, the NEMA type 5-20 20A plug has one blade vertical and the other blade horizontal. The 20A plug is used for equipment drawing in excess of 15A but less than 20A, and can only be plugged into a 20A outlet.
    But the 20A outlets have one vertical slot and one slot that is a "T" and thus will accept both 15 and 20Amp plugs, allowing you to mix loads using multiple lower amperage devices or use a single 20Amp device.

    There are also plugs for higher amerage 120V circuits defined but I rarely see them used. Since 220V is commonly available and runs at lower currents it makes more sense from a wiring gauge point of view to use them where higher power loads are used. For the record, In the US. homes ARE wired for 220V, but mostly to permanently installed and wired equipment such as cooking ranges and ovens, water heaters, air conditioning and heating. We also use 220V outlets and plugs for portable air conditioning and heating equipment and electric clothes dryers.

    Unfortunately the original power decision was made for the US to use 120V in residential appliances and the standard stuck. IIRC they were trying to pick a voltage which was non lethal but it turned out that it can be. In Europe they chose 220V at a later time and that turned out to be a really better choice, if ever so slightly more lethal. I have wondered whether any studies have been done to find if there are more accidental electrocutions from 220 vs 110 in corresponding countries of similar economic standards (such as USA vs. UK or France).
    Certainly some of our power tools would be less limited in power if 220V/15A were the standard branch circuit here.

    Of course Europe made the choice of 50 Hz as the standard line frequency which in my limited thinking is inferior to 60 Hz...
    Induction motors run slower, light flicker and TV flicker is more obvious, linear power supplies are bigger and heavier. Of course the last two are more or less moot these days of digital TV and switching power supplies.
    Last edited by LCHIEN; 12-02-2007, 11:11 AM.
    Loring in Katy, TX USA
    If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
    BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

    Comment

    • niki
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2006
      • 566
      • Poland
      • EB PK255

      #32
      Thank you for your so informative reply Loring

      When I said "machines/tools" I meant routers and table saws that I noticed on the Internet - the only source that I have...

      I did noticed that you have some plugs with one horizontal pin but, I didn't know why...now I know...

      I know that you have also 220V for Air-conditions etc, same as in Japan, they use 100V but have also 220 circuits for air-conditions. BTW in Japan, Tokyo area is using 50 Hz and in Osaka area they use 60 Hz so, every instrument must have both...electric clocks has a switch 50 - 60Hz...

      Nowadays, every house in EU is equipped (by law) with those breakers that feels "leak" to the ground (I don't know how they are called in English) so, accidents are very rare...it works good - I know

      Looking at my table saw motor spec. (Metabo), yes, it's 50 Hz , motor speed is 2800 RPM and the blade speed is 3800 RPM...

      Thanks again
      niki

      Comment

      • LCHIEN
        Internet Fact Checker
        • Dec 2002
        • 21076
        • Katy, TX, USA.
        • BT3000 vintage 1999

        #33
        Originally posted by niki
        Thank you for your so informative reply Loring

        ...
        Nowadays, every house in EU is equipped (by law) with those breakers that feels "leak" to the ground (I don't know how they are called in English) so, accidents are very rare...it works good - I know

        Looking at my table saw motor spec. (Metabo), yes, it's 50 Hz , motor speed is 2800 RPM and the blade speed is 3800 RPM...

        Thanks again
        niki
        you're welcome.

        GFI (Ground fault Interrupter) or more commonly GFCI (C.F.Circuit Interrupter)

        Pulleys and belts...
        Loring in Katy, TX USA
        If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
        BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

        Comment

        • LCHIEN
          Internet Fact Checker
          • Dec 2002
          • 21076
          • Katy, TX, USA.
          • BT3000 vintage 1999

          #34
          Answering my question from above, 220V is 4 times as lethal to its users as 110V, if you accidentally get across it you are four times more likely to get killed, according to this power systems engineer on Yahoo ASK.

          from ASK Yahoo:

          It is simply a judgment call between safety and cost/efficiency. 110v is more expensive because larger conductors are necessary. 220v is cheaper because of lower current but the lethality rate quadruples from 110v compared to 220v and goes up exponentially from there. Basically, 110v is safer but more expensive, 220v is cheaper but more dangerous. Work on 220v circuits should only be performed by qualified individuals.
          • 2 months ago
          Source(s):

          Electrical Engineer by profession. Work for power company. Teach electrical engineering.
          Loring in Katy, TX USA
          If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
          BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

          Comment

          • cgallery
            Veteran Member
            • Sep 2004
            • 4503
            • Milwaukee, WI
            • BT3K

            #35
            Originally posted by LCHIEN
            Answering my question from above, 220V is 4 times as lethal to its users as 110V, if you accidentally get across it you are four times more likely to get killed...
            My electrician was working in a commercial environment (up in a ceiling) when he came upon a box w/o a cover and w/ some cables sticking out of it. He was assured that everything was dead up there but reached for his tester anyhow to see if it was live or not. When he touched the tester to the bundle, the wire nut (which was too large so it didn't tighten) came off and the wires separated (because they were never twisted together either). In a second, he was knocked unconscious and was lucky he was part of a crew so someone was there to call 911 and start CPR.

            He said if it has been 220, he absolutely would not have made it.

            Comment

            • Tom Slick
              Veteran Member
              • May 2005
              • 2913
              • Paso Robles, Calif, USA.
              • sears BT3 clone

              #36
              It's that danged ohm's law that will kill you every time!
              Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison

              Comment

              • jcrenick
                Forum Newbie
                • Jul 2005
                • 58
                • Virginia.

                #37
                I've been using a 6.5 hp shop vac (craftsman) with a drywall bag to try and limit fine dust further. Works well. I don't use it with all my tools, mainly tablesaw and sander. Hope to build a hood for the miter saw.

                Comment

                • chopnhack
                  Veteran Member
                  • Oct 2006
                  • 3779
                  • Florida
                  • Ryobi BT3100

                  #38
                  Originally posted by cgallery
                  My electrician was working in a commercial environment (up in a ceiling) when he came upon a box w/o a cover and w/ some cables sticking out of it. He was assured that everything was dead up there but reached for his tester anyhow to see if it was live or not. When he touched the tester to the bundle, the wire nut (which was too large so it didn't tighten) came off and the wires separated (because they were never twisted together either). In a second, he was knocked unconscious and was lucky he was part of a crew so someone was there to call 911 and start CPR.

                  He said if it has been 220, he absolutely would not have made it.
                  Geez, what did the wires touch?! Did he become part of the circuit or did it short out to the floor beneath him?
                  Just curious.
                  I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

                  Comment

                  • John Hunter
                    Veteran Member
                    • Dec 2004
                    • 2034
                    • Lake Station, IN, USA.
                    • BT3000 & BT3100

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Dale In Corona
                    I found that my shop vac as dust collector experience was much the same as what Henry has reported.

                    I found that with the fine dust created when cutting MDF, my shop vac filters were forever clogging, quickly reducing the effective power of the vac.

                    Dale
                    Try using the bag filter for fine particles inside the Shopvac canister. http://www.amazon.com/Shop-Vac-906-6.../dp/B00063T2BE Add a cyclone 5 gallon system in front of it http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=4310 and it works great. Used that before moving up to the 2 HP DC.
                    John Hunter

                    Comment

                    • Bill in Buena Park
                      Veteran Member
                      • Nov 2007
                      • 1865
                      • Buena Park, CA
                      • CM 21829

                      #40
                      I'm also using a shopvac, but have been thinking about the virtues of DCs. My neighbor, a custom furniture maker, has his shop completely ducted to one of the nicer, larger types, like this:

                      http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=45378

                      I'm looking more at something like this:

                      http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=94029

                      It might be useful to know if anyone has experience with and would recommend either of these HF products.
                      Bill in Buena Park

                      Comment

                      • cgallery
                        Veteran Member
                        • Sep 2004
                        • 4503
                        • Milwaukee, WI
                        • BT3K

                        #41
                        Originally posted by chopnhack
                        Geez, what did the wires touch?! Did he become part of the circuit or did it short out to the floor beneath him?
                        Just curious.
                        I don't know, but it was a life-changing experience for him. He and his wife ended up divorcing, he grew his hair out, and he was a much more mellow guy.

                        Comment

                        • cgallery
                          Veteran Member
                          • Sep 2004
                          • 4503
                          • Milwaukee, WI
                          • BT3K

                          #42
                          Originally posted by b0330923
                          I'm also using a shopvac, but have been thinking about the virtues of DCs. My neighbor, a custom furniture maker, has his shop completely ducted to one of the nicer, larger types, like this:

                          http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=45378

                          I'm looking more at something like this:

                          http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=94029

                          It might be useful to know if anyone has experience with and would recommend either of these HF products.
                          The smaller HF unit is loud like you can't believe. It puts some shop vacs to shame.

                          Comment

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