Controversial Shop question...

[HarmsWay]

Well, at the risk of getting flamed, I will say that in my opinion, using a remote control of any type to turn on/off a power tool like this is a bad idea. At work, we design equipment with moving parts far less dangerous than a saw blade and we would be crucified if we presented a design like that (and that would be BEFORE the lawyers got to it). SparkyJames's school shop scenario is the standard safe way to do this, but mostly it should be easy to stop the saw and more difficult to start it. The magnetic switch arrangement does this very well with a small switch to latch a relay on and a large kill-botton mushroom style switch to disengage the relay. An added benefit of the relay is that if the source of power is removed while the device is on (i.e. breaker tripped), the relay is disengaged and won't turn back on when the breaker is reset.

Most of the disadvantages of the remote have been mentioned already, but I'll repeat them: 1. you need to stop the saw in an immergency but: a) the batteries are weak and the remote no longer works, b) something is covering the remote (okay maybe not possible in your shop!), c) remote slipped onto the floor or out of reach, d) the electronics failed (IR/RF transmitter or receiver or the relay). 2. the saw is accidently started because: a) something fell on the remote or it fell on something, b) the wrong button got pressed, c) the electronics failed (IR/RF transmitter or receiver or the relay).

Sorry Rod, clearly this has worked for you but I'd have to recommend strongly against anyone using a remote.

Bob
(CSA approved helmet in place)

[RodKirby]

... Sorry Rod, clearly this has worked for you but I'd have to recommend strongly against anyone using a remote.

Bob
(CSA approved helmet in place)

No apology necessary, Bob.

All these comments were what I had hoped for - thank you.

[Garasaki]

Most of the disadvantages of the remote have been mentioned already, but I'll repeat them: <snip>

Do keep in mind Rod still has the saw on an OEM switch so some of the problems can be handled if need be.

I personally would not use this approach in my shop (errr garage I mean). I have a terrible habit of mindlessly setting something down somewhere, then having no idea where I put it, even 10 seconds later. I have wasted countless hours searching for my tape measure or a pencil or a wrench or that danged 8x4 sheet of plywood (man, I could swear I just had that).

I could definately see myself remote switching the saw on, cutting, then spending 15 minutes looking for the remote while the saw kept running. Nevermind the half hour I spent looking for the remote to turn the saw on...

It'd be even worse in an emergancy. But I guess with the stock switch still available I'd probably go for that.

And I totally agree with you that they put in on the wrong side with the slider and fence on the right of blade, <SNIP>

(2) When the saw is turned off under normal conditions.. you should not take your hands off the stock IMO till after the blade stops spinning to maintain complete control till there is no further threat from the spinning blade.

I absolutely agree the stock position is "wrong". I changed mine to a rail mounted left side solution too.

However I respectfully disaree about your point 2. I would prefer to say "your hands should never touch the stock you are cutting". I would recommend using push blocks or push sticks to move stock thru the cut, even moreso on dangerous cuts (thick, long rips for instance).

As such, as I complete the cut, the stock between the blade and fence comes sliding out past the blade (thank you push stick) and the cut-off stays put where it ended the cut (or sometimes I push it past the blade, carefully of course, when it makes me nervous sitting there).

And after completing a cut, my immediate move is to the left (away from kickback) and I wack my off paddle with my left hand while the wood is still sitting near the blade. I continue to stand far to the left of the blade while the blade spins to rest.

I see your point about maintaining control of the stock at any time the blade is spinning though. I guess it's just not the way I do it.

[LarryG]

However I respectfully disaree about your point 2. I would prefer to say "your hands should never touch the stock you are cutting". I would recommend using push blocks or push sticks to move stock thru the cut, even moreso on dangerous cuts (thick, long rips for instance).

If you're advocating push sticks or blocks on all workpieces, regardless of size, then I'll have to respectfully disagree with you, in turn. I use push sticks (actually, I use a GRR-Ripper, or some sort of jig) only as a last resort, when trying to control the workpiece with my hands would put them in harm's way.

The reason is that I view a push device as a hinge between me and the workpiece; it's just one more place where something can go wrong. Using a push device means I am controlling the device and the device is then controlling the workpiece -- or so I hope. Any time I can eliminate the middleman and get my hands directly onto the workpiece ... safely, of course ... that's what I do.

Of course I also disagree with Sarge's admonition about staying clear of "the firing lane." All too often, doing this results in an awkward stance with diminished control, which increases the chance that the accident you're hoping to be standing clear of will occur. I stand wherever I have to in order to best control the stock and prevent a problem from developing. If that's directly behind the blade, so be it.

[HarmsWay]

Under normal circumstances, leaving the saw running while you look for the remote or try to get it working is just an inconvenience. I'm thinking more in terms of an emergency (spelled it right this time), where you need to stop the saw right now and every millisecond counts. I'm willing to bet that after using any saw for a relatively short time, most people would be able to hit the stop switch without doing much "thinking" (i.e. it's a reaction). This of course assumes the switch is in the same position. If the switch is a remote control there's no guaranty it will be in the same place (with the exception of Rod!). But, assuming the remote is where it is supposed to be and you pressed the switch quickly, what happens if it didn't work? If I were Rod, even in an emergency, I would probably try it a few times before going to the built-in switch on the saw.

So you will eventually be able to stop the saw but the extra time may have cost you dearly.

Bob

[Garasaki]

If you're advocating push sticks or blocks on all workpieces, regardless of size, then I'll have to respectfully disagree with you,

Am I advocating push sticks/blocks on all workpieces? I don't really know.

I've never cut a big @#! sheet of plywood on my BT. I don't know if I'd use my hands on that for sure. I imagine you'd almost have to.

It's actually been a long time since I've cut any sheet goods of reasonable size. I'd probably use my hands on those I guess.

I guess lately I've been cutting mostly pretty small pieces so that's what was fresh in my mind...and I always use the pushers on those (as there isn't much clearance between the blade and edge of the stock).

I think one thing that may be really important, and is sort of what this post is all about, is to do whatever makes you comfortable. Whats safe to you may not be safe to me...but is either of us wrong? I think it's better to be relaxed, comfortable, and confident in your process then it is to be "right" and follow rigid rules developed by someone else. Either way, power tools are downright dangerous and deserve all the respect we can give 'em.

Understanding and respecting the risks are the first steps to being safe.

[SARGE..g-47]

Morning John...

(2) When the saw is turned off under normal conditions.. you should not take your hands off the stock IMO till after the blade stops spinning to maintain complete control till there is no further threat from the spinning blade.. me

"However I respectfully disaree about your point 2. I would prefer to say "your hands should never touch the stock you are cutting". I would recommend using push blocks or push sticks to move stock thru the cut, even moreso on dangerous cuts (thick, long rips for instance)".

I always guide the stock on the fence with my hands (wearing leather gloves) till the end of stock reaches about 12" from the blade. Then a push stick is always used.. Always on a rip cut.

But... it would be impossible to control all rip cuts with a puch stick from beginning to end. The picture I post below will be a prime example. &#37;80 of my rip cuts are with stock more than 6' - 12" long and if you want long stock to get out of control quick, try using a push stick from the beginning on those lenghts that extend beyond the table. And I use supports which is another "ya better" on that lenght cut.

The key IMO is never get your hands closer than 12" to the blade. But.. but.. even after the push stick is picked up with the right hand still keeping pressue to the stock on the fence to maintain control as you pick it up. And the cut is then completed with the push stick. That requires using a hand to hold the push-stick.

I persoanlly never move that hand with the push stick in it till the blade stops spinning as I stand left of blade. My saw gets turned of with my left knee to avoid any detraction or taking my eyes off the blade.

Here's pic that shows why a push stick is not practical until the stock tail reaches the proximity of the blade. This was taken to show a new front table extention I built. If it had been a live cut.. the door would be open and their would be Rigid flip top stands to support the stock beyond the rear extention on this particular rip. You will see why in the pic!


Regards...

[SARGE..g-47]

Morning Larry G...

"Of course I also disagree with Sarge's admonition about staying clear of "the firing lane." All too often, doing this results in an awkward stance with diminished control, which increases the chance that the accident you're hoping to be standing clear of will occur. I stand wherever I have to in order to best control the stock and prevent a problem from developing. If that's directly behind the blade, so be it'.. Larry
__________________

And I have no choice but to disagree with the contention that all too often standing clear of the lane results in an awkward stance with diminished control, etc., etc.

In 35 years of ripping I have never been in an awkward stance that resulted in loss of control of the stock by standing clear of the lane. A balanced stance clear of the lane was established before the saw was even turned on with a concious effort as a balanced stance is as much a part of basic TS safety as keeping the lane clear.

I have seen Tage Frid.. Kresnov.. Klaus.. Ogate.. Maloof.. Mehler in seminar and I have never seen any of those gentlemen ever stand anywhere but outside the lane at a TS. Nor have they ever mentioned, taught or publicly condoned standing anywhere but out of the lane at a TS that I am aware of.

I have never seen or heard any Industrial Art teacher whether it be HS or college level condone standing anywhere but outside the lane for safety. And until now, I have never heard anyone on any forum I have ever visited condone standing in the lane while the blade is spinning. And you might add any cabinet shop or furniture factory facility I have visited as OSHA will disgree also and shut them down if they taught that and allowed emplyees to do so.

What I have heard is you do not jeopradize the balanced stance you adopt before the cut begins by leaning to far once your stance is established. You do not sit objects on the fence as they could be accidentally bumped or vibration cause them to slide off and possible toward the blade.

The most dangerous position you can be in at a TS is directly in front of or rear of a spiining blade. If you are aware of that and pre-planned your stance in a way as to not lean or lose control in advance, how could you be less in control?

Sorry... I really don't mean to start a flame war here (I think that's what it's called) as it's not what I am here for, but.... what source of information did you conclude that "All too often, doing this results in an awkward stance with diminished control, which increases the chance that the accident you're hoping to be standing clear of will occur"... ??

Regards...

[LarryG]

what source of information did you conclude that "All too often, doing this results in an awkward stance with diminished control, which increases the chance that the accident you're hoping to be standing clear of will occur"... ??

Personal experience, except that I have not actually had an accident, and no small amount of observation. In the case of the former, I just FELT like I was in less control, and moved accordingly to a position of more control, and thus no accident occurred.

Two possible key differences:

1. I'm left-handed, and although that "handicap" has forced me to adapt to a right-handed world and learn to use my right hand rather well, there are still some tasks that don't feel entirely comfortable to me whether I'm working in either left-hand or right-hand "mode." Ripping on a table saw is one of them.

2. If I'm not mistaken, you use the table saw solely for ripping. I use mine for all manner of cuts (the table saw being one of the most versatile machines in the shop, I can't see restricting it to just one job). Instances when I am standing in line with the blade are probably more frequent when I'm crosscutting, tenoning, etc.

BTW, I'm fairly certain that other experienced members on this same forum have said exactly the same thing as me ... that when standing in line with the blade gives the most control, that's where they stand. EDIT: Having searched the forum message data base, I'm now 100&#37; certain of this.

EDIT: And I should perhaps add ... in no way am I advocating deliberately moving into a position behind the blade, for every cut. Nor am I saying that I am necessarily standing squarely behind it, with the spinning disk centered on my sternum. I am, in fact, very rarely there; I do try to stay out of the line of the blade as much as possible. Which is most of the time. I'm just saying that I'm not necessarily 100% clear of the blade, 100% of the time. It is simply not possible to do that and still maintain the very best control of the workpiece, in every situation.

[JTimmons]

Rod, I got a question and maybe it's been answered already and I missed it.

Why a remote control?

Now, I admit I think a remote control for a DC (for me) is silly cause I don't have a 3000 sq ft shop with the DC at the other end, it's close enough for me to walk up and turn it on 99% of the time.

What purpose does a remote serve on a tool that your already standing on top of?

Oh and I am not calling you silly, just truly wondering why as it seems a relocated switch with a kick plate would be safer and easier.

Edit:

I could see it coming in handy for ripping boards like Sarge. By the way Sarge, could you find something a little longer next time?

[SARGE..g-47]

Morning Larry..

"BTW, I'm fairly certain that other experienced members on this same forum have said exactly the same thing as me ... that when standing in line with the blade gives the most control, that's where they stand".. Larry

Perhaps they have... ?? But.. I will let allow those members that have said that speak for themselves to state their position.

I understand the problems of a left handed person, but the vast majority are not left handed. My best friend is left handed but he has adapted to the setting that is more geared to the right hander. He simply purchased a right tilt saw and moves the fence to the left of blade.

I do only rip on the TS as that is what it was originally designed for what that design is best suited for. And I indeed do a tremendous amount of ripping. But.. using the TS for ripping only has only come to be in the last year. For 34 years I cross-cut, tenoned and dadoed on a TS and still stand left of blade with complete control and out of the line of fire.

And I'm not saying that it can be done with 100% degree of committment over the course of a shop life. An exception is when using large panels. I will not put a full panel on a small saw before it has been cut down using a safer method first. And even down-sized panels should have proper support in the form of extensions built around the table or some type of mobile or temporary support that can be used around it during the operation.

On the rare occassions I do down-sized panels, I start them into the blade from a position that exposes my body slightly in the lane. But.. when the panel has traveled far enough into the blade for me to totally clear left and control it on the fence, I totally clear left and get out of the center of a potential shot of a flying missle.

And I am certainly not telling you or anyone else "you must not stand in the lane". That is a personal decision and you have every right to stand where you want to. If you want to hang from a rope over the saw and make your cut, it's your shop and none of my personal business.

But... I feel that there may be entry levels reading on this or any forum and that the statements you made are not in their best interest without not considered the other side of what might potentially occur. Once they understand what the issues are, they can make their own decision as to what and how they tackle safety in thier shop.

But again... I will personally go to my grave believing that "keeping the lane clear" is a basic TS safety issue and does not lead to the dangerous problems you stated as "All too often" which was based on your individual personal experience being left handed and the fact you think (but are not sure) that other members on this forum have said it in the past.

Sometimes it is best to button your lip and let something go to keep the flow of harmony continue smoothly. But.. this is a case I just couldn't and is not sioething personal against youi. If anyone wants to tag me as a troll or whatever trying to start an argument.. so be it! But.. we are not talking family harmony here.. we are talking about very serious TS safety procedure that IMO needed to be discussed in the interest of all that own a TS.

Again... sorry we dis-agree but we certainly do in this particular case!

Regards...

[LarryG]

I feel that there may be entry levels reading on this or any forum and that the statements you made are not in their best interest without not considered the other side of what might potentially occur. Once they understand what the issues are, they can make their own decision as to what and how they tackle safety in thier shop.

Yes, and that is exactly why I wrote what I originally did. There are so many, many things that have been passed down over the long years as "always correct" or "totally safe" or "the only way" without anyone stopping to question their validity under all conditions. That they have become mantras does not necessarily mean they are always correct, for all people, in all situations.

[SARGE..g-47]

Yes, and that is exactly why I wrote what I originally did. There are so many, many things that have been passed down over the long years as "always correct" or "totally safe" or "the only way" without anyone stopping to question their validity under all conditions. That they have become mantras does not necessarily mean they are always correct, for all people, in all situations.

Nothing is always correct.. there is no "only way".. and if you have stood behind a TS you realize that there is no "totally safe", espcially if you have stood behind 5HP to 12 HP versions. No argument here!

But.. your technique seems to be based on "All too often" and results that could occur "All to often" when there is nothing to support "All too often" except you personal experience. The technique I have spoke of is based on common sense adapted knowing the most dangerous aspect of a TS is front and rear of spinning blade by millions of users over many years of TS usage in general.

So... I simply will let the individual decide what techniques based on what has been presented that they want to adapt as it is their personal decision. I see no further point of discussion as you have your opinion and I have mine. They just differ radically, but we both are entitled to them.

Let those that read be their own judge as to what they deem correct logic for them as it appears no one else is going to speak.

Again.. nothing personal, just stating my opinion based on logic as I have personally arranged it in my own mind. Let the chips fall where they may!

Regards...

[LarryG]

Sarge, I have grown weary of your condescending tone, and I especially resent your distorting my words. So yes, there is one point on which we can wholeheartedly agree: this conversation is at an end.

[SARGE..g-47]

Sarge, I have grown weary of your condescending tone, and I especially resent your distorting my words. So yes, there is one point on which we can wholeheartedly agree: this conversation is at an end.

"I see no further point of discussion as you have your opinion and I have mine. They just differ radically, but we both are entitled to them".. just posted

Sorry if you took it as a condescending tone.. I ddn't distort "All too often", just questioning the validity after yoiu stated it! No further comment!