Padding board footage?

[woodynoob]

I bought some s3s 8/4 maple at a hardwood lumberyard that I've never been to before. (For a project. So it's in the correct forum. )

I selected my board, calculated board footage, and asked the front desk for the price per board foot. (I do that so I can mellow out sticker shock when I check out.$

Well, when I was rung up, the dollar amount was higher than I expected. I asked him what he thought board footage was on that board and he told me a number a couple feet higher! He must have saw my wtf face, because he then explained that they add on 12pct to the board footage to account for wastage at the lumber mill. I asked him, "Isn't that accounted for when you charge me for a two inch thick piece of wood (8/4), while only delivering 1 3/4?" He said no. He said that the lumber mill charged them that, so they pass it along.

Is this customary? I've never heard or experienced this before...

[twistsol]

I've never seen this, or noticed it, but a board foot is a unit of measure. Whether it is defined legally for trade or not I don't know. They can have different prices / board foot for rough vs s2s vs s4s, but they can't change the definition of the unit of measure. It seems to me it's like pricing steak and bananas each at $1.50 a pound but a pound of steak is only 2 ounces while a pound of bananas is 18 ounces.

[Black wallnut]

I'd not shop there. A board foot is a board foot. S4S is sold with price based as either nominal board foot or by the foot of length. Nominal means accounting for kerf, planing and other surfacing. IOW you are thinking right. It might be worth chatting with the manager or owner.

[Bill in Buena Park]

They do something similar at my local hardwood retailers. They sell 4/4 S2S SLR1E which is really closer 13/16 inch due to the surfacing, and count the board feet on surface area measure instead of volume/cubic. Only two retailers with good variety close by, both do it.

[Stytooner]

Between the supplier and the retailer makes no difference to the end user. If you need 5 BD Ft for a project and they only deliver 4, you are short.
They have to charge you for what is there. Any price difference in what they bought will be passed onto you of course, but that is not the proper way to sell to a customer and I think they were pulling your leg because they did not want to figure the actual BD FT and say they were wrong. Dimensional lumber on the other hand is different. We all know 2 by 4's aren't and we know why.
Board foot however is not like that. It is the actual amount sold to the consumer. Any other excuse is just that.
What next. We get 3/4 gallon of gas and they call it a gallon because that is what they had to pay?

[woodynoob]

Thanks for the input. I'm going to follow up with some local woodworkers that go there and see if that is customary or just for me.

[woodynoob]

They do something similar at my local hardwood retailers. They sell 4/4 S2S SLR1E which is really closer 13/16 inch due to the surfacing, and count the board feet on surface area measure instead of volume/cubic. Only two retailers with good variety close by, both do it.

What does it mean to calculate board feet on surface area measure vs volume/cubic?

[woodynoob]

...Dimensional lumber on the other hand is different. We all know 2 by 4's aren't and we know why.
Board foot however is not like that. It is the actual amount sold to the consumer. Any other excuse is just that.

I thought board feet accounted for milling loss (2x4 is not truly a delivered 2 inch thickness), so what do you mean "Board foot however is not like that. It is the actual amount sold to the consumer." ?

Oh, I need to correct my original posting. It was sold as s3s and not s4s. FWIW.

[sailor55330]

Actually, what they did was exactly what I would expect from a retailer that purchases through a wholesaler. What they did not do was present it correctly. I work with many wholesalers and end retailers. When a retailer receives product from a wholesaler, they often experience an "upcharge", which is a premium tacked on to the product from the wholesaler for shipping, handling, etc. I have seen this go as high as 25% in some cases. Normally, the retailer simply passes this on and "builds in" the upcharge into the retail you see at the stores. What this retailer should have done was to basicially raise the retail price per board foot by 12%, not short the product or add it at the point of sale.

The formula is (retail-cost)/retail = Margin %

For example. retailer A buys a widget and pays $1.00. They want to sell it for $2.00 in order to make a 50% profit margin, which most retailers look at margin % they make and most have a target %. Now, if they want to keep the 50% margin, they should have charged $2.25 and given the full board footage. Chances are you would have never even given that a second thought. This happens nearly all the time when a retailer purchases from a wholesaler for resale--and yes, you experience it all the time but don't know it......if you're not convinced, this is exactly what 97% of all grocery stores do.

So, did the retailer do anything wrong, no, not really. Passing on a upcharge or wastage fee amount is pretty normal, but in this case, poorly communicated. I would say that if the owners of the store knew employees were presenting things this way, they probably wouldn't be very happy.

[phrog]

I think I would have told them to keep it and not gone back.

[lrr]

That seems highly unusual, and to me, boderline unethical. Seems a more logical solution woulf be for thenm to jsut charge more per board foot, if they feel they are not making enough.

Most places I go, they tend to be generous on their calculations, especially with ragged edges or splits that mean you are not going to get complete usage of the piece of wood. Some lumber palces I shop have board feet written on the ends, and the figure has always seemed reasonable.

[Stytooner]

Right.

That was my point. They should have charged more per BD Ft if they were actually selling it by the Bd Ft. Don't tell me my calculated 5 BD Ft that I am buying is theoretically 6 or 7 because that is what it costs. If you market by board foot, it better measure up at that time of sale by the board foot and be charged whatever they have as the per Bd Ft price.
When we bought raw lumber for face frames in a cabinet shop, it came with one straight sawn edge. The other side was raw with dips and wanes like the tree would have at the bark.
They actually allowed us extra BD Ft to account for having to true it up. That way we end up with the BD Footage that we ordered. Never the other way around.

[Bill in Buena Park]

What does it mean to calculate board feet on surface area measure vs volume/cubic?

My apologies - that wasn't very clear. So what I was trying to say is my store doesn't calculate board foot based on actual volume measurement (they don't calculate off true thickness.) They treat the S2S-SLR1E lumber as if the thickness is true 4/4, or 8/4 or whatever it was before surfacing - but it isn't that thickness any longer. The 4/4 is actually 13/16, but they say 1 inch x length x width; same for 8/4 - its just under 1-3/4 thick, but they say "2 inches, x length x width.

[Stytooner]

Okay. They are mixing the chocolate with the peanut butter. They are using board feet with dimensional lumber rules. If they are going to play that game, they should at the very least, tag every board with a fictitious BD Ft amount that they will be charging you for. You are paying for 25% of lumber that you will never see. I know that is someone's idea of the proper way to do business, but it is not everyone's idea and it certainly doesn't promote repeat customers.

[woodturner]

TheThey sell 4/4 S2S SLR1E which is really closer 13/16 inch due to the surfacing, and count the board feet on surface area measure instead of volume/cubic.

What you describe - calculating volume based on the rough lumber dimension - is normal practice in the industry. What the OP described may not be, in my experience.

In your example, you are buying 4/4 lumber, so the calculation is width in ft x length in ft, since thickness is not considered for lumber 1" or less in thickness, per industry rules. After surfacing, the lumber will of course be a little thinner, but the conventional practice is to calculate board volume on the rough dimension, in the same way that construction lumber is sold. For example, a 2x4 rough dimension board is 1.5 X 3.5 after surfacing. Here is a link to the "legal" rules for calculating board feet: (summary) http://www.nhla.com/assets/1603/rules_card9.pdf (full rule bool) http://www.nhla.com/rulesbook Note that for ANY hardwood lumber 1" or less board feet is calculated as surface area - it's only for thicker lumber that thickness is considered. So if you buy a square foot of 1/4" stock, that is one board foot.

I'm not sure how the OP calculated board feet, and if he used the 13/16 instead of the 4/4, that would be in the range of the 12% he cited. However, if he meant that he calculated board feet using the 4/4, and then they added on 12%, that would be very different and unusual.

Suppliers like Rockler that supply surfaced lumber in small quantities at retail generally do not follow these rules and often do price based on actual dimensions. However, their prices are usually much higher as well.

My guess is that the OP calculated board feet based on the actual dimension of a finished board, which is not the normal way to calculate board feet, and the supplier calculated the board feet per industry rules.