Thein Separator vrs. Cyclone questions

[capncarl]

My goal was to reduce the fine dust in the shop. I can't say that Thein modifications did any good, but I think getting the grates out of the airflow and cleaning up the sharp edges in the fittings were worth the effort. When I did these mods and installed the Wynn filter I did a serious cleaning in the woodwork room of my shop, I even mopped the floor (wife is still laughing, and I am glad my friends did not catch me). All of my sawing, planing and drum sanding has been done in the other room of my shop, and as I previously said, I've emptied 5 cans of shavings. I do not see any dust that is getting by the Wynn filter or on leaks in the system. The only real dust in this room now is coming from the band saw. That is my next dust target.

[atgcpaul]

I do not see any dust that is getting by the Wynn filter or on leaks in the system.

Ditto. In my old setup, the Wynn caught all the fines (down to 1 micron). The dust and chips were being spit out at the TS or were dropping out of the planer when I forgot to clean the DC trash can. Other dust and chips, like from drilling or routing, IMO, just can't be helped, but those I just accept.

The biggest problem for me was the fine dust packing up the pores in the Wynn. When I first discovered this, I thought there must be a wad of shavings clogging up the pipe, but then I checked the Wynn and was utterly amazed I was getting any suction at all with the amount of dust that was caked in there. Pounds and pounds!

It seemed to me any health benefits I was getting from using the Wynn were completely negated by the plumes of room filling dust released when I cleaned it.

I'm thinking before I finish my DC reconfig, I will weigh the cleaned out Wynn filter and call that the "tare" weight. I'll try to weigh it each time I change out the trash can.

[capncarl]

Being able to roll the whole collector out of doors to clean the filters is the main reason that I did not stationary mount the collector. Whenever there is enough light and not too cold I take my sanding out of doors.
capncarl

[JimD]

My plan is to use the shop vacuum (with it's dust deputy) for sanding. I also plan to do it outside when possible. I also will use the shop vacuum with the track saw and also will use it outside sometimes. That will let me fix the DC location and the shop vacuum is better suited to the small connections of the sander and track saw.

[atgcpaul]

If I can find a shady spot in the spring, summer, or fall, I will sand outside. However, I don't bother with a DC. I just stand upwind.

[capncarl]

When the temp gets comfortable enough to sand outside the gnats and mosquitoes move in. Heat, Gnats, misquitoes, sweat and wood dust is too much to bear, I move inside.

[atgcpaul]

Tonight I got everything setup and I thought I was good to go. I fired it up and tossed in a large handful dust and shavings. I won't lie, dust made it past the SDD and into the clear plastic bag--more than acceptable. Looks like I have more sealing to do. I'm going to try to find a smoke pencil.

[capncarl]

Atcgpaul, What sealing are you referring to? Your dust may have too much velocity when entering the sdd to drop out. That is probably the reason that 5" collector piping is actually better that 4". In my past experiences with collectors a lot of air flow testing was done to get everything right in the Cyclones. I would recommend that you crack open a couple of blast gates on the other drops and run the same test again. Yep, suction will drop slightly at your main pick up but overall the filter will remain clean and run longer and it will be a mute point. A few leaks may be a good thing!
capncarl

[atgcpaul]

What sealing are you referring to?

The consensus I've seen from numerous sites is that an air leak below the cyclone will prevent dust from swirling down to the bottom catch chamber. I think I will light a mosquito coil and see if the smoke gets sucked into the seams in the metal trash can or where the can meets the top platen. I've got plenty of silicone caulk which I can use on the can and I'll seek out a better gasket for the platen. I had filled the channel I routed with latex caulk but maybe it dried too hard and doesn't create a flexible enough seal against the can lid.

At least this is low hanging fruit before I move on to considering changing pipe size.

I will try opening up one of the blast gates. I've seen enough people online with the SDD and 4" hose to know having no dust bypass the SDD is achievable, though.

[JimD]

Looks like smoke pens are about $35 (Amazon is one source). Not as cheap as a mosquito coil. My guess is that you can improve the dust separation but that it will never equal a good cyclone. I'm interested in what you achieve, however.

[capncarl]

Since this thread was started in early Jan. I thought it was a good time for an update and to see how the Super Dust Deputy installs were going.

As I was planing my newly acquired cedar, cypress and pine I accidentally allowed the dust collector chip drum to overfill and and put about 15 gallons of chips in the plastic bag under the Wynn Nano cartridge filter. This looks like a good time to clean out the filter.

I was surprised that the Wynn Nano cartridge filter was caked solid with flour dust. This is a testament of how well the filter works as I have not seen any build ups of "free range" flour dust in my shop like I had before the Wynn filter.

This flour dust build up is after 8 months of use, building several dozen Tiny Tables, a dining room table and buffet and lots of misc. other work with the table saw, planer, drum sander and downdraft table. I'd estimate that the chip drum has been emptied 10-12 times.

Lessons learned,
Dont let the chip drum overfill.
Clean the Wynn filter more often.
Rethink the Thein Separator and replace the bottom plate with one with a narrower slot like jdon pointed out.

poolhound and atgcpaul, How about an update on your Super Dust Deputy install?

[atgcpaul]

Only because I like you would I remove the bottom bag for this picture

Your system has seen a lot more use than mine! I've probably only emptied my 30 gallon can twice at most since I started using this new setup. In addition to chips from planing and sawing, I also used quite a bit of MDF during this time. I can't say I've gained or lost any suction. Seems the same as before.

I might have weighed my filter before the final install this February but I don't remember if I recorded it. Anyway, I wouldn't say this image is exactly an endorsement for the SDD. However, the amount of dust/chips in the bag is a fraction of what's in the can and dumping the can is a lot easier that dumping the bag--since I reuse the bag. Like you, I think I also let my can fill up on the first load allowing a lot of dust to get sucked up. I never did get around to installing a clear window to see how much is in the can. I said in an earlier post I don't think I was getting a good seal around the can and there may have been other leaks preventing dust from falling down into the SDD. I'm not going to upsize my piping from 4" to 5" or 6", though, to slow down the air. I don't have any fines floating around, but I didn't before I changed my setup either.

Just this weekend I installed a mobile base under the whole setup and I placed the can snug under the board attached to the SDD vs the 1" it used to be. This seemed to help eliminate leaks around the can. I may re-install the baffle I had underneath my filter to help redirect anything to the bag rather than up into the filter. This setup has the same footprint as before so I haven't lost any floorspace but it stands several feet taller which has its pluses and minuses. I should beat the filter more and I suppose get the shopvac hose up in there, too.

[capncarl]

Thanks for the photo atgcpaul!
Wow, I'm surprised that the SDD has allowed that much fine dust. I contribute most of my fine dust to sanding, either from the drum sander or the finish sanders. For my chinaberry and cypress tables I find that the wood is prone to tear out on the planer just when I get to the good part so I don't plane it down as much and reduce the thickness using the drum sander, thus creating a lot more find dust. This much dust might have clogged the filter even using a SDD?

[JimD]

Since my previous comments on this thread I've made a little progress in my shop and built a cabinet for it and a couple for my wife. I mostly used my track saw on both sheet goods (for the shop cabinet) and solid wood (for the wife's stuff). I used my shop vac/DD exclusively for dust collection. It works so well I am not anxious to install my DC and I may sell it. I'm mostly working on the house these days and haven't emptied out the 4.5 gallon drywall bucket under the cyclone more than half a dozen times but the shop vac has essentially nothing in it and I haven't cleaned the HEPA filter at all. In addition to the woodwork, I use the shop vac for cleanup including drywall dust and popcorn ceiling debris.

While my volume is low, it still seems the DD on a shop vac may work better than a SDD on a DC. For light cleaning of the Wynn filter, you might try a paddle cleaner. I built one for mine and it does some good but is not nearly as effective as blowing it out. But cleaning the filter is not enjoyable to me regardless of how you do it. Back before the DD I threw my HEPA filter around the back yard some - which worked - and washed it in a shop sink - probably worked better. With the DD, I have been able to ignore it.

[atgcpaul]

While my volume is low, it still seems the DD on a shop vac may work better than a SDD on a DC.

I agree with this to a degree. I think the smaller DD benefits from having much tighter connections than the SDD and the cyclone itself seems to be much taller and skinnier in proportion to the SDD.

I sanded some MDF tonight with my ROS connected to the DD and there wasn't any dust left on the surface and from what I could tell, it all stayed in the DD can and didn't get to my shopvac. I just don't like how noisy the shopvac is compared to a DC, though. What I haven't tried is connecting my DD to my planer. I just can't imagine that it wouldn't clog but I've been wrong before.

This weekend--wife willing--I'm planning on making this cart for my shopvac and DD. I really don't use my shopvac anymore unless it's connected to the DD.

http://www.woodsmithshop.com/download/609/shop-vacuum.pdf