Glue And Clamps

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  • cabinetman
    Gone but not Forgotten RIP
    • Jun 2006
    • 15216
    • So. Florida
    • Delta

    #1

    Glue And Clamps

    There's been a lot of discussion of how to put face frames together, and how to mount them to the cabinet. When asked on how to join face frame rails and stiles, if joinery is desired I will usually suggest a half lap. M&T is also good, but in reality a bit of overkill.

    In installing to the leading edges of a cabinet, comments have been to use dadoes, rabbets, biscuits, pocket screws, dowels, and splines. Glue and clamps is really all that is needed. Well, the complaints with that, is that there seems to be a dislike to waiting for glue to dry.

    For those other joinery methods, there is the time to set up and actually prepare the method to use. There's not much stress on face frames, as they add to panel rigidity, and have to carry doors. For the time needed to do the joinery, a face frame can be assembled using only a butt joint...glued and clamped, and that assembly glued and clamped to the leading edges.

    As for maintaining a squared corner with a face frame, when the stiles get glued and clamped to the edges, the joint of the panels is covered by a single piece of wood...not dependent on the rails. With the rails, they help substantiate the corner of the stile and the two panels. Once those parts are glued and clamped, you have a very rigid assembly.

    So, is there a trade-off? You can wait for glue to dry, or you can do some machining to the parts, and hope that they fit their corresponding members perfectly. Other choices for assembly could include a fastener from the back of the face frame to bring a butt joint together (like corrugated fasteners), but, they exert force on the back of those pierces. Using biscuits, dowels, pocket screws is a waste of time and materials IMO. Just glue and clamps provide the most gluing surface, without the possibility of being at risk by some type of fastener not performing perfectly.

    .
  • chopnhack
    Veteran Member
    • Oct 2006
    • 3779
    • Florida
    • Ryobi BT3100

    #2
    I know you have mentioned this before, but I am still a fan of pocket screws. I will be the first to admit that I have not built many face frames - but the ones that I have I used glue on butt joints and used the pocket screws for clamps. Best of both worlds IMHO - strong when dry and strong while drying. No waiting and no extra machining.
    I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

    Comment

    • LCHIEN
      Super Moderator
      • Dec 2002
      • 22023
      • Katy, TX, USA.
      • BT3000 vintage 1999

      #3
      I'm with C&H, pocket screws and glue provide quick and efficient assembly of face frames without having to wait for them to set, stronger than either alone, ready to go after screwing.

      With face frames in more or less permanent installations and fixed furniture, almost no one will ever see the pocket screws, and if they do its like, they weren't supposed to be looking there, so it doesn't count.
      Loring in Katy, TX USA
      If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
      BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

      Comment

      • chopnhack
        Veteran Member
        • Oct 2006
        • 3779
        • Florida
        • Ryobi BT3100

        #4
        Originally posted by LCHIEN
        I'm with C&H, pocket screws and glue provide quick and efficient assembly of face frames without having to wait for them to set, stronger than either alone, ready to go after screwing.

        With face frames in more or less permanent installations and fixed furniture, almost no one will ever see the pocket screws, and if they do its like, they weren't supposed to be looking there, so it doesn't count.
        That's why Kreg and others sell those goofy looking plugs, I agree, if your client is looking, then you should be charging them for the labor to build it the old fashion way.
        I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

        Comment

        • ivwshane
          Established Member
          • Dec 2003
          • 446
          • Sacramento CA

          #5
          Having built my first set of cabinets and face frames I tried the pocket screw route and while the joint was strong I couldn't get the two faces to be even (I probably wasn't using the right type of clamp). Since I already had the pieces cut I couldn't think of any other way to join the pieces together and finally said, "f it! I'll just use glue and clamps." To my surprise it worked and worked well.

          Hearing cabinetman not only approve but recommend the glue and clamp setup I'm reassured of my decision

          Comment

          • chopnhack
            Veteran Member
            • Oct 2006
            • 3779
            • Florida
            • Ryobi BT3100

            #6
            I found clamping the two pieces being screwed together on to a flat surface aided the alignment and also prevented the glue from acting as a lubricant.
            I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

            Comment

            • BigguyZ
              Veteran Member
              • Jul 2006
              • 1818
              • Minneapolis, MN
              • Craftsman, older type w/ cast iron top

              #7
              +1 for pocket screws. Fast and strong. I've done face frames and frames for wainscotting paneling with great results.

              Comment

              • cabinetman
                Gone but not Forgotten RIP
                • Jun 2006
                • 15216
                • So. Florida
                • Delta

                #8
                Originally posted by chopnhack
                That's why Kreg and others sell those goofy looking plugs, I agree, if your client is looking, then you should be charging them for the labor to build it the old fashion way.
                Actually, the old fashioned way is much simpler, faster, and IMO much stronger. So, you may have to refund some money.

                .

                Comment

                • chopnhack
                  Veteran Member
                  • Oct 2006
                  • 3779
                  • Florida
                  • Ryobi BT3100

                  #9
                  Originally posted by cabinetman
                  Actually, the old fashioned way is much simpler, faster, and IMO much stronger. So, you may have to refund some money.

                  .
                  Please explain, in my head I am thinking face frame with mortise and tenon is the old way of doing things. If properly constructed, certainly stronger, but not faster or simpler.
                  I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

                  Comment

                  • cabinetman
                    Gone but not Forgotten RIP
                    • Jun 2006
                    • 15216
                    • So. Florida
                    • Delta

                    #10
                    Originally posted by chopnhack
                    Please explain, in my head I am thinking face frame with mortise and tenon is the old way of doing things. If properly constructed, certainly stronger, but not faster or simpler.
                    From my OP...
                    Originally posted by cabinetman
                    For those other joinery methods, there is the time to set up and actually prepare the method to use. There's not much stress on face frames, as they add to panel rigidity, and have to carry doors. For the time needed to do the joinery, a face frame can be assembled using only a butt joint...glued and clamped, and that assembly glued and clamped to the leading edges.

                    As for maintaining a squared corner with a face frame, when the stiles get glued and clamped to the edges, the joint of the panels is covered by a single piece of wood...not dependent on the rails. With the rails, they help substantiate the corner of the stile and the two panels. Once those parts are glued and clamped, you have a very rigid assembly.
                    In that quote, I'm not advocating doing M&T joinery.

                    .

                    Comment

                    • gsmittle
                      Veteran Member
                      • Aug 2004
                      • 2793
                      • St. Louis, MO, USA.
                      • BT 3100

                      #11
                      Since a butt joint is end grain to face grain, wouldn't a glue-only joint be rather weak? OTOH, it's not bearing much of a load.

                      Hmmmm…

                      g.
                      Smit

                      "Be excellent to each other."
                      Bill & Ted

                      Comment

                      • cabinetman
                        Gone but not Forgotten RIP
                        • Jun 2006
                        • 15216
                        • So. Florida
                        • Delta

                        #12
                        Originally posted by gsmittle
                        Since a butt joint is end grain to face grain, wouldn't a glue-only joint be rather weak? OTOH, it's not bearing much of a load.

                        Hmmmm…

                        g.
                        The actual joint is fairly inconsequential, as both the stile and rail are glued and clamped.

                        .

                        Comment

                        • chopnhack
                          Veteran Member
                          • Oct 2006
                          • 3779
                          • Florida
                          • Ryobi BT3100

                          #13
                          I see. Your first two lines mentioned M&T so naturally I thought that was one of the methods being used. I see your point, I like using screws for clamps - no waiting for glue to set up and if you have more than on FF to make again no waiting.
                          I think in straight lines, but dream in curves

                          Comment

                          • jabe
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 577
                            • Hilo, Hawaii
                            • Ryobi BT3000 & Delta Milwaukee 10" tilting Table circular saw

                            #14
                            Face Frame

                            I like pocket holes, fast & strong. Biscuits would be my second choice. .

                            Comment

                            • jking
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2003
                              • 972
                              • Des Moines, IA.
                              • BT3100

                              #15
                              Originally posted by cabinetman
                              The actual joint is fairly inconsequential, as both the stile and rail are glued and clamped.

                              .
                              Doesn't the face frame provide rigidity to the front of the box? In that case, I wouldn't think butt joints would be adequate. Of course, I could be wrong in how much the face frame helps.

                              I do agree with you on just glueing & clamping the face frame to the box. There should be enough long grain even if the box is plywood for a strong glue joint.

                              Comment

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