Glue And Clamps

[cabinetman]

Doesn't the face frame provide rigidity to the front of the box? In that case, I wouldn't think butt joints would be adequate. Of course, I could be wrong in how much the face frame helps.

I do agree with you on just glueing & clamping the face frame to the box. There should be enough long grain even if the box is plywood for a strong glue joint.

The stile of the FF is usually wide enough to glue to the side member, and part of it glues to the leading edge of the top and bottom of the cabinet. IOW, it catches the joint between the vertical end, and the top and bottom of the cabinet. So, in essence, that cabinet joint at the front has a single piece of wood covering it. The actual joint of the stile and rails is beyond the cabinet member joint.

Once the rails are glued and clamped to the stiles, and glued to the leading edge of the cabinet, you have the rigidity in place from the stiles to the end panels, and from the rails to the top and bottom. So, a butt joint @ the R&S, is sufficient when clamped. That fitment can be a better joint if just done that way instead of reducing the surface glue area by using a biscuit or two, or using pocket screws. There's always a chance that the two surfaces brought together as a butt joint and mechanically fastened with pocket screws can fail. Pocket screws pull from one side, or IOW, at a slight angle. That isn't as an effective tightening axis as just a clamped joint. You will never have a breakout from a protruding screw, split ends or cracks, that pocket screws can produce.

With this type of joint being just glued and clamped it will likely never fail. If a cabinet can be racked enough to break the glue joint, there is likely a very poor job done with the method of assembling the cabinet members.

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[chopnhack]

Very well explained cman! I see your point clearly now and why you do it this way. It would seem to assemble faster as you mentioned. Very cool, thanks! :-)

[jking]

The stile of the FF is usually wide enough to glue to the side member, and part of it glues to the leading edge of the top and bottom of the cabinet. IOW, it catches the joint between the vertical end, and the top and bottom of the cabinet. So, in essence, that cabinet joint at the front has a single piece of wood covering it. The actual joint of the stile and rails is beyond the cabinet member joint.
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As most face frames I've seen are made from 1-1/2" - 2" stock, I never really considered that the vertical FF member alone could provide that much rigidity. My main concern with rigity is during handling & installation of the cabinets anyway. Once they're installed it's remarkable how rigid everything is, even with very questionable cabinet construction.

Very informative post. Thanks.

[cabinetman]

As most face frames I've seen are made from 1-1/2" - 2" stock, I never really considered that the vertical FF member alone could provide that much rigidity. My main concern with rigity is during handling & installation of the cabinets anyway. Once they're installed it's remarkable how rigid everything is, even with very questionable cabinet construction.

Very informative post. Thanks.

I agree with you about the handling, and lets not forget delivery, and installation, are situations mandating good construction. The cabinet construction is where it starts. A majority of my cabinetwork is done frameless. Even without a face frame, I can pick up the boxes, do whatever manipulation I have to do to complete the fabrication, and do the necessary movement of them to do a finish. Some are laminated with plastic laminate, and others are wood or veneer, receiving a finish. So, they get moved and handled quite a bit, even before leaving the shop and being loaded on my truck.

When I've had small spaces to work, they get moved and stacked probably several times. If the basic box construction is questionable, there will be problems. As for a cabinet needing a face frame for structural integrity, mine don't. I may use a FF if doors are inset, or that the FF might have some decorative treatment, or if they have to match existing cabinetry. But, many FF'md cabinets utilize an overlay, which may not reveal much FF at all.

So the long and short of it is that FF's require that much more solid wood, and its preparation. For the cost and time FF's require, I find it more advantageous to make them frameless. I also prefer using the hinges for frameless, as IMO, they are more durable and dependable than those for FF's.

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[JimD]

I agree with C'man except I plan to continue to use pocket screws to put the face frame together before applying it to the cabinet. I have also made more frameless cabinets than face frame but I've made more than a few (but not nearly as many as C'man) of each type. I use the locking pliers on the joints to keep them flush during assembly of face frame joints. I just think it is easier to assemble the face frame prior to putting it on the cabinet. The few minutes it takes to drill the holes and drive the screws seem worth it to me to get the joints tight between the face frame members and it adds a little to the strength of the cabinet.

With 3/4 plywood carcases, the face frame is not needed. Some commercial cabinets are not this think and may need the face frame. Otherwise it is just appearance.

For painted cabinets and particularly storage cabinets, I will use brads or even finish nails (pneumatically driven) to attach the face frame during the glue setup. I will not claim this is better in any way, it is just convenient. I plug the holes prior to painting, of course. But the face frame will be better attached if you clamp it. I've also done both. In this case I use a few pin nails, most typically, to get the face frame in exactly the right position and then clamp it off.

Jim