Starting the process with the electrician, phase 1.

[dbhost]

I have an electrician, that is a business partner with a fellow I work with, that several of my colleagues have worked with and been very happy with.

We are working it for $65.00 / hr for him, and a helper to pull the permits, replace the main panel (damaged by Ike, and workable for the sub panel project, but will not allow for any further upgrading afterwards), and run the new sub panel, and circuits. He will provide a materials list, and its up to me to get the parts / materials.

LOML insists on getting the bigger main panel, and flat out says that "just in case you want to move your shop out to a shed down the road"... every time I hear that phrase, I cringe a little bit... But hey, a dedicated shed / shop would be just that, completely dedicated. No lawn mower, no weed eater, no none of that junk. And specifically, no flower pots, no potting soil and no miracle grow to get spilled on my jointer, again!

I talked with the guy across the street and got measurements on his shed, 16x20 with a 14 foot roof peak height. If I can get them to green light that size, I would only loose 2 feet, but be completely dedicated to wood shop. A good trade off if you ask me!

For now, the projects are moving ahead, SCMS / Mortiser bench is scheduled to begin construction this weekend. For now, I will build it to be a big, open faced box. Existing storage media, the clamshell cabs, and totes, will get shoved in there. The DC ducting will have to come down in large segments and stowed aside for safe keeping. And then the wrecking crew can get to work (my wife, my brother in law, and myself with hammers, masks and gloves) tearing out the walls on the east and south sides... Then make the call... Yoo Hoo the walls are down to bare studs! Come run my power!

I hate doing sheet rock work, but this is something I am looking forward to big time. Get the insulation in place, and re rock these walls... Seal up the gaps, and flip the switch on that AC or heater!

Now I know some are going to ask why I didn't wait until I got the power done to get my bigger compressor. The answer is simple, while I will be pulling 220v service in to the shop for future growth, I specifically wanted a 110V compressor for portable work. YES this compressor is hardly an ultra portable, but when I need to haul it to a friends place to help them with framing or what not, it will be great to be able to plug it in and get to work!

I am curious about installing the kraft faced fiberglass batts though. When working from inside, which way does the paper go? I assume it goes to the inside, but I have heard elsewhere that it is supposed to face OUT in hot climates. Which is right?

[gsmittle]

AFAIK, the kraft paper goes to the inside. My understanding is that when the edges are unfolded and stapled to the studs, it forms a moisture barrier. Perhaps one of our more knowledgeable members will chime in.

Last week I got electricity run out to my shop, after four years of using an extension cord and carefully counting amps. I used the father of one of my students, and saved a bit of money by being the unskilled labor that dug the trench, jackhammered the shop foundation, and lifted and toted for him. We did all of this on a day the temp hit 106°. Trenching and jackhammering took an entire day, and the electricity took about 6 hours.

Just waiting for the inspector to pass it all, and the heat wave to break, then it's back to the shop to do some wiring!

g.

[cabinetman]

I am curious about installing the kraft faced fiberglass batts though. When working from inside, which way does the paper go? I assume it goes to the inside, but I have heard elsewhere that it is supposed to face OUT in hot climates. Which is right?

AFAIK, the kraft paper goes to the inside. My understanding is that when the edges are unfolded and stapled to the studs, it forms a moisture barrier. Perhaps one of our more knowledgeable members will chime in.g.

+1. Paper goes to the inside. See here. A tip for installation is to use one of the electric staplers that shoot T-50's. They are light and it beats the heck out of a manual hand stapler.

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[woodturner]

He will provide a materials list, and its up to me to get the parts / materials.

It might be a good idea to get a parts quote from him, as well - electricians in the trade get significant discounts. When I did my service panel, I saved about 20% over the best best prices I could find (HD with a 20% discount, online, etc.) by having the inspector/electrician get the parts for me.

I am curious about installing the kraft faced fiberglass batts though. When working from inside, which way does the paper go? I assume it goes to the inside, but I have heard elsewhere that it is supposed to face OUT in hot climates.

In hot climates, the "vapor barrier" should generally be installed to the outside. The point of the vapor barrier is to control condensation, which occurs where the hot air meets the cooler air. In winter climates, that's the inside wall, in hot climates, the outside wall.

As a practical matter, though, kraft paper is not a particularly effective vapor barrier, so it may not make much difference.

In cold climates, typical practice is to install the kraft paper on the inside and slit the kraft paper or use unfaced insulation, then install poly as a vapor barrier.

The building sciences site has a number of research reports on a variety of building topics, including insulation. The insulation report has a map with regions and specific advice based on the region, tested and verified. Well worth a read, in my opinion.
http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...apor-barriers/

[dbhost]

A tip for installation is to use one of the electric staplers that shoot T-50's. They are light and it beats the heck out of a manual hand stapler.

.

Thanks for the tip, however, I absolutely despise my Arrow electric stapler. The only way if fires staples all the way is with the stapler itself plugged directly into a wall outlet. Not very useful...

I will use my HF pneumatic to put this stuff up. Probably overkill, but at least I know the staples will be seated.

Should I insulate prior to having the electrician run the power, or after? I would think having the insulation out of the way would help, but then again, it might not...

[woodturner]

Should I insulate prior to having the electrician run the power, or after? I would think having the insulation out of the way would help, but then again, it might not...

Usually the wiring is run first, the insulation is installed last.

[pelligrini]

Should I insulate prior to having the electrician run the power, or after? I would think having the insulation out of the way would help, but then again, it might not...

Insulate after the elec is installed and inspected. It's better to have it out of the way for installation. Some inspectors can throw a fit if the work is covered slightly. Doing it after installation means that the insulation won't be moved around and disturbed during the elec installation process either.

[BigguyZ]

Local codes may be different, but the paper barrier for insulation is not an effective/ code approved vapor barrier. You need proper 6-8 Mil platic vapor barrier. Also, all of the electrical boxes need to be sealed. This can be done by using vapor barrier boxes, that have a silicone or foam border that you caulk the vapor barrier to. Or, you install a plastic box over the back of a std outlet box. Also, make sure you use the red celophane tape to seal all seams. And you also are supposed to seal the barrier at the top and bottom plate with caulking as well.

The idea is that there's no way air can move through the wall. Is that ideal, or practical, I can't say.

[dbhost]

Both the electrician and I were discussing plate gaskets. The minimal amount of air movement through the socket itself would be acceptable.

[pelligrini]

Local codes may be different, but the paper barrier for insulation is not an effective/ code approved vapor barrier. You need proper 6-8 Mil platic vapor barrier. Also, all of the electrical boxes need to be sealed. This can be done by using vapor barrier boxes, that have a silicone or foam border that you caulk the vapor barrier to. Or, you install a plastic box over the back of a std outlet box. Also, make sure you use the red celophane tape to seal all seams. And you also are supposed to seal the barrier at the top and bottom plate with caulking as well.

The idea is that there's no way air can move through the wall. Is that ideal, or practical, I can't say.

Again, as woodturner mentioned, the location of the vapor barrier (if even necessary) varies on the climate. I'm sure David in League City has a whole lot more cooling days than you do in Minneapolis. The humidity levels there are much higher than those in your area too. He really wants his walls to be able to stay dry. An inpermeable vapor barrier, especially when installed incorrectly, can cause a lot of problems. Under certain circumstances, it could cause a wall (and even a building) to rain inside it.

Slowing or stopping air movement is a bit different than stopping vapor movement. The link Woodturner provided is pretty good.

[cabinetman]

Thanks for the tip, however, I absolutely despise my Arrow electric stapler. The only way if fires staples all the way is with the stapler itself plugged directly into a wall outlet. Not very useful...

I will use my HF pneumatic to put this stuff up. Probably overkill, but at least I know the staples will be seated.

You might figure out what's wrong with the stapler. Extension cord may be too light, gun might need lube. A wide crown (like a T-50) will work better than the narrow crown (¼") air gun staple...unless you have a wide crown air stapler.

.

[dbhost]

The way the wall is built, I have looking from the outside in...

Brick veneer, drained / vented cavity, vapor barrier / housewrap, CDX sheathing, 2x4 studs, 1/2" fire rated gypsum board.

Similar to Figure 6 in that link from Woodturner... Except right now, now insulation...

I can see the way insulation was installed in the attic on the high wall for the cathedral ceiling, the kraft backing is facing inward, plywood strips are cross nailed to keep the insulation from slumping out into the attic...

From THAT diagram, they show unfaced insulation however. Mind you, I am not wedded to faced insulation, I just figured it would be easier to install... Now I am totally confused.

I wish I could drop in on a house being built so I can see how the insulation is being installed...

According to the JM website, in my region the faced stuff is supposed to point in... I think I might be in the clear by installing that way. Of course if I could afford it, I wouldn't use fiberglass batts... I would use spray foam...

[BigguyZ]

Very good point! I was thinking from my midwest point of reference.

Of course, you can always go with spray foam insulation and now have to worry about vapor barrier in any way.

[pelligrini]

From what I understand it also depends on what type of foam. The closed cell acts like a vapor barrier (most expensive and best r value per inch), open cell is still permeable. We're totally encapsulating a lot of our houses now in open cell, walls and underside of roof decks. The attics stay a lot cooler, and the houses have been a lot more energy efficient.

I'm still kind of on the fence on the closed cell foams. While they do perform very well. I think more attention needs to be paid to the HVAC systems and bringing in natural air. I still need to research it a lot more and look at some case studies.

[pelligrini]

The way the wall is built, I have looking from the outside in...

Brick veneer, drained / vented cavity, vapor barrier / housewrap, CDX sheathing, 2x4 studs, 1/2" fire rated gypsum board.

If it's just housewrap, like Tyvek, over the exterior sheathing. It is probably not a vapor barrier, we usually call it a weather barrier. It is still perimable to water vapor, but it won't let in raw water (except for all the fastener penetrations). I've always considered a vapor barrier to be 0.1 perm or less, like the poly sheets. The paper on insulation is more like a vapor retarder.

David, I'd still install the paper side in on your new insulation.