Need cab design help (again)

[LarryG]

The answer is, increase the width of the face frame on the back, and the corresponding depth of the carcass, from 23-3/4" to 24". Shorten the plywood end panel accordingly, extend the frame, and then use the "Easier" option to flush the corner.

Yes. My answer presumed that whatever your "extents" dimensions are, they would remain and everything would have to be brought out to those points. I guess I didn't mention this because I presumed it was obvious ... at least to me ...

[Schleeper]

Yes. My answer presumed that whatever your "extents" dimensions are, they would remain and everything would have to be brought out to those points. I guess I didn't mention this because I presumed it was obvious ... at least to me ...

I'm new at this kind of thing. Can you tell?

Actually, it's probably better that I had to walk my way through that part myself. I'll have a better understanding if/when I come across it again.

Thanks.

[cabinetman]

I'm new at this kind of thing. Can you tell?

Actually, it's probably better that I had to walk my way through that part myself. I'll have a better understanding if/when I come across it again.

Thanks.

Drawing it out full size with more than one view will help with the layout and details. Once drawn, pieces can be cut and fitted to the drawing. Plain brown wrapping paper can be bought by the roll in the stationary section of most drug stores, grocery stores or department stores for a couple of bucks.
.

[Schleeper]

Drawing it out full size with more than one view will help with the layout and details. Once drawn, pieces can be cut and fitted to the drawing. Plain brown wrapping paper can be bought by the roll in the stationary section of most drug stores, grocery stores or department stores for a couple of bucks.
.

My wife had some graph paper, so I just made a 1:4 scale drawing of the overhead view. I know it's not as precise as full size (especially when you're dealing with measurements down to 1/32",) but all I really needed was the concept. After that, it was just an easy geometry exercise.

I find full-size models and templates to be invaluable when dealing with irregular shapes and designs (as opposed to straight lines.) Problem is, even stick figures are a challenge for me!

[LarryG]

Actually, it's probably better that I had to walk my way through that part myself. I'll have a better understanding if/when I come across it again.

I think that's a very savvy observation. At the moment you're trying to solve one problem with one cabinet, but you will run into similar situations again.

A couple of general tips that you might find useful:

First, while it's always a goal to actually build what you set out to build, in all respects, it's more important that the dimensions of the various components and assemblies match each other than match what's on paper. With most projects, there comes a time when you have to stop looking at the numbers on the plan and start referencing off the partially-completed project.

Second, and closely related to the above, always build the most trouble-prone component first. By that I mean the one that will cause you the most grief if its dimensions don't come out exactly as intended. In this case, that's your corner cabinet. If the 12" end panels come out 1/16" over or under, you simply adjust to depth of the adjoining rectangular cabinet to suit. It would be a lot harder to build the corner cabinet last, since its critical dimensions occur in two different directions, and have to mate with adjoining cabinets on both sides.

[cabinetman]

It may seem like I'm beating a dead horse talking about doing full size drawings. Doing any drawings in a lesser scale will not provide the ability to see how they will fit together in their finished sizes. What I set out to build will be exactly what I build. If it isn't right in the beginning, it won't be right in the end.

For what it's worth, I lay out all projects in full size. If it's a kitchen, I'll use anything cheap, like 1/4" plywood, or 1/2" MDF, or particle board and cut pieces to lay out the floor plan of the project. I may cut out the potential countertop, or a sacrificial countertop that fits the dimension of the kitchen, so I know that anything that is drawn on it for base cabinets, or upper cabinets will fit the space and line up perfectly under and over the countertop, and line up both laterally and vertically. This will also aid in spacing out openings for appliances, drawer openings, filler/scribe strips, plumbing, and electrical access, actually anything that the actual space would require. This can also be done on the rolled brown/white wrapping paper. That is easier to store at the end of the day if you have limited space.

As an example, lets say that the drawing for the upper cabinets is in plan view. That drawing will be a view like a cabinet was already built and cut off horizontally at the top of the floor of the cabinet. What will be drawn is the lines for the floor, any face frames, their thickness or angles, and how they fit. So, you're not looking at numbers then, you're looking at the actual finished cabinetry as you want it to be. Instead of doing that and you start referencing off a partially completed part of the project, you've already gone too far. Thats like trial and error fit. But, having it drawn out in full size, you can cut the pieces to fit on the drawing, and you will end up with what you wanted to from the beginning.

Does this process minimize time and materials, YES. It will also show if your angles are off on any angle cuts for the FF. Once you set up for the miter cuts, a short cutoff to be placed on the drawing will show if the edges line up with the drawing. When the cabinets are finally assembled, they will sit right on the drawing as desired. I find this method very predictable. It's difficult to make a mistake this way.
.

[LarryG]

John, I don't want you to be misled. Understand that I'm talking about a mindset, or a philosphical approach to woodworking, as opposed to a specific way of working. The two are not mutually exclusive. There are many ways to work, but all of them need to take into account the undeniable fact that wood moves. Small dimensional changes will creep into every assembly no matter how hard you try. Anyone who has ever actually built anything out of wood, and checked his built dimensions against the plans, understands this.

"cabinetman," I will once again renew my request for you to post some pictures showing how you do these things. I'm sure the members, myself included, could learn a lot from your vast experience. Since you claim to do these procedures all the time, I don't understand your ongoing refusal to post a few pictures showing us all how it's done. A picture is, after all, worth a thousand words. Some pictures would not only help us better understand how something is done, but could also save you a lot of typing time.

[cabinetman]

"cabinetman," I will once again renew my request for you to post some pictures showing how you do these things. I'm sure the members, myself included, could learn a lot from your vast experience. Since you claim to do these procedures all the time, I don't understand your ongoing refusal to post a few pictures showing us all how it's done. A picture is, after all, worth a thousand words. Some pictures would not only help us better understand how something is done, but could also save you a lot of typing time.

Thanks for your concern. I've never "refused" to post technique pictures, I just don't usually take them. This is the first time I've been aware that my posts were difficult to understand, or needed "more" to explain them. I really don't mind typing explanations, it keeps my mind sharp. From my previous posts of certain techniques that included pictures, drawings, and text, there were very few responses, including yourself. If my explanations aren't that clear I will try to simplify the text and include some visual enhancements. I usually don't have the time for all the set-up and picture hosting. I have compassion for Niki.

But, since you asked so politely, the next time I do a project like that I'll include pictures. I would also like to apologize to Schleeper for any diversion brought about in the course of this thread.
.

[Schleeper]

No apology necessary, Cabinetman. There is so much good information out there today for DIYers like myself, it's like a huge buffet (and who doesn't like a good buffet!) I like to check out all the choices, take what I think will work for me, and leave the rest for someone else (or for the next time.) More often than not, I end up using a combination of things.

C-man, you've obviously found a method that gets you consistently good results. It makes perfect sense. Back in the 80's, I used to have my suits custom-made at a place in Boston's old garment district, and they would do the same thing. After they took all the measurements, they created full-size templates (patterns) of all the pieces, which they then used for cutting out the fabric. They held on to them, for use the next time I wanted something made. If I were a cabinetmaker, it's possible I'd find it necessary to do the same thing, but I'm not. I'm just a guy working on his first, if not only, set of kitchen cabinets.

Everyone's different. I know I have a relatively limited window of time in which I can maintain enthusiasm for any project I'm working on. If I had to create full-size drawings every time I took on a new woodworking project, I'd surely lose interest before the first sawdust flew. Once that happened a few times, I wouldn't even bother trying.

From one of your posting on another topic, I believe you said that the cabinets you make are frameless. Is that correct? Am I also correct in assuming that there is less margin for error when constructing carcasses for frameless cabinets than there is for framed? I'm operating under the assumption that small irregularities in my work won't matter as much, so long as the frames are exactly the right size, and are constructed and attached properly. Please tell me I'm not deluding myself!

[cabinetman]

From one of your posting on another topic, I believe you said that the cabinets you make are frameless. Is that correct? Am I also correct in assuming that there is less margin for error when constructing carcasses for frameless cabinets than there is for framed? I'm operating under the assumption that small irregularities in my work won't matter as much, so long as the frames are exactly the right size, and are constructed and attached properly. Please tell me I'm not deluding myself!

I fabricate more frameless than FF'md. I strive for the same margins for either method. Since I like the undersides to be tight to each other, combinations of upper cabinets are constructed and screwed together and sanded all at once so there is no gaps or differentials in the bottom surface.

When installing multiple cabinets, there's the task of getting the face frames to line up flush. This is a tip that may be of some help. For example if you have three upper cabinets each having their own face frame call the first "A", the second "B", and the third "C". If you've installed the face frame on the cabinets, lay them on their backs and line them up so the face frames are as close to flush as possible. Start with "A" and "B". Clamp the two FF's together. From whichever side you are comfortable drilling and screwing, drill pilot holes and countersink in at least three places (top, middle, bottom) from one FF into the other. Make sure the holes are not drilled where hinges will be installed. Insert screws that will be shorter by 1/4" to 1/2" than the ones you will use when installing. Bump screws in tight. Remove clamps. Do the final scraping or sanding on the two FF's at once so they are flat and even. Then go to the "B" and "C" cabinets and do the same thing, etc.

When installing, after placing them where they are to go and leveling them, screw cabinets to the wall, but not up tight. Using the slightly longer screws, align the FF's, clamp, and insert screws into the same holes and bump tight. Then do the final tightening of the cabinets to the wall. If the wall is not flat, (how many are?) shimming the back of the cabinets may be necessary, so that there is no strain on the FF's. This method helps make final alignment easier.

The prefitting and facing the front edge of frameless is about the same procedure as with FF's. The edging, either solid wood, wood veneer tape or even in laminate is applied with the cabinets screwed together. The face edges are sanded together so they are flush to each other. The edging goes on and fitted edgewise so there is no gaps. When that is done, and the cabinets are separated, they will install, using the same holes and the face edges will be aligned.

I hope this gives you some food for thought. Of course this is just the way I do it and others may have their own methods.
.

[Schleeper]

Thanks for the tips, C-man. I'd say it gives me food for thought. I was planning on applying the finish to the frames before attaching them to the carcasses! My rationale was, it would be easier to get at the backs of the frames, and I also wouldn't drip anything on the finished plywood interior. But there are other ways to get around those issues.

While on the subject of connecting the frames of the cabinets, I've got a question about the width of the stiles. The book I'm using suggests that I might want to make the stiles on cabinets that butt up to an adjacent cabinet half as wide as the normal rail and stile width, so the portion of the FF that shows between the doors is consistent. Thoughts?

[jabe]

I would make all the reveals (space) between the doors & drawers the same. With full overlay door hinges, this would be easy to do. Knowing what types of hardware you're going to use helps in planning your door & drawers reveal. So your FF stiles width will be dependent on the hardware you use.
Like Cman, I like to make drawings of the cabinets first b4 cutting any wood. For difficult problems like yours, I would make a full scale drawing. It's cheaper to make the mistakes on paper than with the wood.
You could cover that 12" exposed side bottom with a matching veneer.

[cabinetman]

Thanks for the tips, C-man. I'd say it gives me food for thought. I was planning on applying the finish to the frames before attaching them to the carcasses! My rationale was, it would be easier to get at the backs of the frames, and I also wouldn't drip anything on the finished plywood interior. But there are other ways to get around those issues.

I don't apply any finish to the backs of the FF's. I apply FF's to the front edges with just glue and clamps...no biscuits, dowels, or pocket screws, providing the back edges of the carcass is accessible. Putting any finish on that surface would make for a poor glue bond. Having the backs finished is on the moot side, as they're not visible.

While on the subject of connecting the frames of the cabinets, I've got a question about the width of the stiles. The book I'm using suggests that I might want to make the stiles on cabinets that butt up to an adjacent cabinet half as wide as the normal rail and stile width, so the portion of the FF that shows between the doors is consistent. Thoughts?

That's a design feature that you would determine is important to the look you want. If you allow a space between mated doors of the same cabinets, and want the same space between doors of party cabinets, then each door would look like a single door. That might appear to you as too repetitious or too uniform, like just a bunch of boxes. Depending on the spacing, the overall look can be influenced by the door layout.

What may enhance the spacing is if there was a design feature, like a different stain, or specie of wood for the FF, or some profiled detail on the spacing, like carving or flutes. It's a personal taste decision. Your decision might also include thoughts of flush (inset), or overlay doors, as that may make a difference. For whatever decision you make, make sure the hinges you use will allow the spacing you want.
.

[Schleeper]

The cabinets I'm replacing are half-overlays, no lip. The doors of the wide cabinets are separated by a 3" panel (2" reveal,) and there are 1" reveals on the ends of every cabinet. The resulting effect is a 2" reveal between each door, with 1" at the end of the last cabinet.

I'm married to the same half-overlay design, but I think I'd rather cut the lips for mine. Now that you mention it, I think I'd also rather see the double doors meet in the middle, rather than be separated by the wide panel. However, that'll be up to SWMBO.

So, is the even spacing between the doors achieved by how the FF's are constructed, or how the doors are mounted (which is presumably limited by the type and size of hinges being used)? What came first, the chicken or the egg?

[cabinetman]

So, is the even spacing between the doors achieved by how the FF's are constructed, or how the doors are mounted (which is presumably limited by the type and size of hinges being used)? What came first, the chicken or the egg?

This goes to the overlay amount of the hinges, and the way you lay out the doors, and size the FF's accordingly. If your cabinet ends are butted tight, your measurements can be marked off right on the front edge. This is why I make the boxes first.

If you ask me about the chicken/egg thing, I think the chicken came first and was first a live bearer hybrid, that evolved to an egg layer. But, it could have been a live bearer and evolved to a hybred egg layer.
.