Glue ups - managing squeeze out

[poolhound]

Dealing with squeeze out and the knockon effects it can have to finishing is a constant frustration for me. I try various options but often still end up with some areas of surface near the joint that just wont take stain or finish.

Here are the options I have used on a case by case basis I would love to hear everybody elses experinces, hints and tips.


1. Wipe off with rag - usually a bad idea as it spreads the affected area further although if its going to be sanded, primed and painted not usually too much of a problem.

2. Tape off all surrounding areas - Can work well for large areas, I find it tough to impossible for small joints (box/dovetails) and it still seems that small amounts of glue seeps under.

3. leave it alone and remove with sharp chisel/scraper when dry. This is one of the prefered methods but still causes issues in corners which are also hard to sand off the residue afterwards as they are tight and would require significant cross grain sanding.

I just used and had #3 on a table I am just finishing (1 more coat of oil then wax to go - will post a photo when done).

When you see Norm do projects on NYW or others on Wood Works you always see them just leaving the squeeze out and removing it afterwards but never do they seem to have any issues with stain or finish not taking.

I look forward to learning something new :-)

Jon

[LCHIEN]

if you are consistently getting a lot of squeezeout then you are using too much glue. Try and reduce it. I know, it's not easy. This has taken me years of practice and I still don't always get it right.

Once you have reduced squeezeout to a minumum then the excess is much more easily taken off with a chisel as its more beady and seems to have more surface tension - it won't necessarily "wet" to the adjoining wood.

[jackellis]

One of the few skills I seem to have mastered is getting good joints with just the right amount of squeezout. Here's what I do.

Spread glue on *one* surface in a ribbon that's about 1/4" wide. Then use a small brush (in my case, the cheap HF acid brushes) to spread the glue evenly over the whole surface. If I can't cover the entire surface, I add small amounts of glue until I do. There should be just enough flue to completely cover the surface with no voids and the wood underneath should not be visible.

Result: small beads of squeezout. I haven't tried staining a piece yet (actually I hate finishing work) but clear finishes seem to get where they're supposed to. Probably the biggest concern is where a glued up workpiece touches clamps - have not figured out how to deal with that just yet.

[LarryG]

I apply glue exactly as jackellis does, except usually (though not always) on both surfaces. Whatever squeeze-out there is is managed with blue tape, wiping with a damp sponge, a wetted toothbrush, or all three. Haven't had any problems with finishing.

[milanuk]

After getting *very* frustrated with glue squeeze out, I came to the conclusion that tape is cheap - very cheap - compared to a) sand paper and b) the time spent sanding or otherwise cleaning up. It takes a while to get everything taped off, true, but it still goes faster than cleaning the stuff up otherwise. I'm still working on my 'glue-fu' as far as getting just the right (minimal) amount of squeeze out like these guys

[cabinetman]

Probably the biggest concern is where a glued up workpiece touches clamps - have not figured out how to deal with that just yet.

Trying to figure out how much to use so that there's no squeeze out is difficult. Then there's the thought that not enough was applied. Planning the clamp up should place clamps away from the glue area, or possibly where it will squeeze out. In actuality, seeing some squeeze out says that the joint isn't starved. Too much clamping pressure may squeeze out too much.

I've never had too much luck with taping off the area. Glue can get under the edge. If you're lucky enough to get just enough that when dry hasn't "wetted" into the surrounding area as Loring pointed out, just a scraping may remove it. Since parts are usually sanded before glue up, especially in the corners, letting the glue dry and scraping off may leave a noticeable area.

For tight areas, I may lightly scrape off excess glue with a chisel, but not hard enough to abrade any wood. With whatever is left, wiping with a wet rag, turned frequently until clean. Even then, it's touch and go. With those areas that show light with the first stain or sealer, when dry, a light scraping with a chisel or card scraper taken back to bare wood sometimes does the trick.

Then there's the times when a lot of time is spent with stain and a tiny brush to blend in the blemish.
.

[steve-norrell]

I have taken to applying the stain before glue-up. You do have to be careful not to get the stain in joints, but it does avoid the problems of squeeze-out from too much glue.

There's a piece in the current issue of Woodsmith on this subject: http://www.woodsmith.com/issues/175/

Regards, Steve

[LCHIEN]

Glue is one of the WWer's key, critical components.
I have struggled with excess squeezeout and also with joints failing. You hear how glue joints are as strong as the wood itself.
I would recommend spending some time experimenting and becoming familiar with glue. Get some 1x2s about 8" long, make a 1" overlapjoint along the skinny edge using a plain butt joint.
try breaking the joints when they are young (about 20-minutes to an hour) and also the next day.

The young joints will break because the glue is not fully cured yet but it will tell you where the glue has and has not gone. The old joints if properly made should not break and may well break by splitting the wood grain parallel to the joint.

Things I observed:
running a bead of glue fom the bottle onto one side of te joint then pressing them together, perhaps sliding them around a bit to spread the glue, was not to satisfactory. Lots of squeezeout, hard to control, but also when you broke the joint apart, I found that there were lots of places the glue did not go.

I found there's a property I call "wetting" where the glue soaks into the wood a bit. its sort of like solders forming cold-solder joints or wicking onto hte metals and making a good joint. or how water either beads up or spread out.

In good glue joints there was evidence where the glue wetted both sides. in a bad joint it was clear that only one side was wetted and the glue did not adhere to the other side.

The best gluing technique I now use (OK, so on days when I need something fast and dirty I'll still spread a bead with the bottle and mash them together) is to apply a bead, then mush it out with my fingertip so the entire intended joint area is wet with the glue. I mash it pretty good so that I wipe away any excess glue and spread it to the dry parts and get as thin a layer as my finger will slide on. Then I do the same with the other side. Keep a roll of paper towels and a spray mist bottle of water. Dampen a towel with the mister to help keep your fingers clean. (also the mister is great for activating PU glues).
Now I clamp them together and it makes a pretty good joint, both side fully wet and a carefully controlled amount of glue applied. You want to see just a bit of glue poking out when you clamp it securely, that tells you you have not starved the joint. knowing the glue is uniform and wetted to both sides tells me I have the best possible joint.

A well made butt joint can be very strong, lap joints, rabbets, anything that increases surface area will only make them stronger still, when properly glued.

[poolhound]

Lots of great feedback. I see I am not alone.

I have considered staining before glue up but that can be a real pain if you have lots of parts and not really ideal if you are edge joining a tabletop or panel.

I guess I need to be more careful and spend more time getting only the perefect amount of glue.

[LarryG]

Adding to what Loring and, earlier, jackellis said, spreading the glue out into a uniform coating helps you see just how much you've applied. For narrow edges and/or confined areas, I use an acid brush; for big acreage, I use one of those dummy credit cards that are always showing up in the mail.

With either, I find that the bead of glue I squeeze directly out of the bottle tends to go a lot farther than I think it will. When I'm in a hurry and don't take the time to spread it out evenly, I tend to get a lot more squeeze-out, because I've invariably used way too much glue.

[JR]

I use acid brushes to spread the glue, as has been mentioned by a couple of people. I also have a couple of spreaders for large area applications.

I still get some squeezeout, though. I make sure I have a wet rag for immediate use. It may also be useful to scrape away squeezeout after it starts to set - about 20 minutes after you clamp it up. The glue comes away as a semi-solid bead, but may not have adhered to the wood. You'll probably want to have that wet rag handy at this point.

Lastly, if you can't get to to the problem until much late, you might consider a scraper like this:



It's especially effective on table-top or other panels, but also helpful for getting into some nooks and cranny's.

JR

[Slik Geek]

I use a small plastic tub filled with water and a small sponge. I wipe up the squeezed out glue with the moistened (not wet) sponge, covering a decent amount of area. Then I rinse out the sponge in the tub, squeeze out most of the water, and go over all the areas repeatedly. If you wring out the sponge well, you won't be soaking your wood with water. They key seems to be repeated wiping to get the glue you missed, but can't see.

I've found this technique to be effective at getting up the glue. The sponge is also handy during application when I get some glue on my fingers.

I used to hate gluing because I always seemed to have glue messing up my finish. It doesn't bother me now because I seem to be getting the glue up rather well. Note that I wipe surfaces multiple times, including after a brief delay to get later squeeze out.

[poolhound]

I notice a number of you talking about wiping off with a wet rag. I had always thought this was a bad idea as the now diluted glue gets spread across a larger area and could soak in depper due to the dilution. I have had this experience before so now dont do it unless it will get painted as it still seems to affect any stain.

Maybe I need to go for the slightly damp sponge approach as SG suggests. I might even try an experiement if I can find the time.

Jon

[JimD]

For glueing up big panels - edge glueing - I normally put one board vertical, run a bead of glue down it, touch the other board to the first one to get a bit of glue on it, then lay them both down in the clamps and clamp up. I have never had a glue joint done like this fail. Sometimes I spread it out but usually I do not.

For joints (mortise and tenon or biscuit), I spread the glue on the joint and typically both sides. I use HF acid brushes for this. If I remember, I rinse them out and reuse them (yes, I am that cheap). I have had a cope and stick joint fail but it was an extreme application and just one door. I don't think I got enough glue on it.

For panels, I do not worry about squeeze out because I belt sand the panel to flatten the joint after glueup and this takes care of any minor squeeze-out. For joints, I try to wait until the glue is pretty dry and then take it off with a chisel. Sometimes I deliberately take off a little wood too if I think it has glue on it.

I rarely stain but I do not often have any problem with the finish. I have had glue show up but if it is noticable I strip the finish and re-sand or scrape the glue off. I hate it but see no alternative.

Jim

[rjwaldren]

For inside corners let the squeeze out skin over then use a drinking straw to scoop it out. Thin straws flex so it should lay flat against the sides of the joint and get right into the corner, without smearing it all over the place.

Watch David Marks of Woodworks on DIY channel do a glue up. Use a brush, spreader or roller for large areas and apply only a very thin even layer on both sides. With tight bond I've found that spreading thin enough to leave a glossy transparent layer gives great results - you likely be able to see the glue "wetting" the mating surfaces before joining them. I any areas look dull they may have soaked up more glue (MDF) so add a little more. And at that point your glue-to-wood adhesion is already established so when you join the two pieces your really only mixing the glue on each side together so it takes very little, unless your also trying to fill defects.

I had a clamping jig break at a 90 degree joint recently and there was no glue exposed by the break, it tore the wood grain out completely. In that case I was the cause of the failure and no amount of glue or mechanical fastener would have saved it.