Lamination mess?

[gwyneth]

It's actually pretty optimistic to put the question mark after mess.

With my pickup half full of garage sale particle board, I started experimenting with laminating tonight to see if I could make an acceptable bottom or shelf for a small cart.

(While I have enough 3/4" oak plywood for a top and a bottom, the idea of a middle shelf was suddenly desirable.)

I cut a piece of particle board, a piece of 1/4" oak plywood and a piece of 1/4" cheapo softwood plywood to see if the combination would work.

However, I was in my papermaking workshop and instead of walking back for the Titebond, I opened a new gallon of white PVA glue (Elmer's). Unfortunately, it was the consistency of hardening joint compound, so I grabbed a jug of clear PVA glue.

It wasn't until after I had made the plywood-particle board-plywood sandwich and the stuff started oozing out that I started thinking this may not have been a great idea.

Rather than putting the stack into my press (the original plan) so it could squirt clear glue all over the place, I covered the pile with a sheet of plastic, a piece of plywood, more particleboard, and a lot of weights evenly distributed. Then I reached in and wiped the sides of the oozing glue (which may or may not even stick--probably not as strong as white PVA, which I realize now would have been questionable, itself.)

If I get brave tomorrow, I'll undo the whole pile and take a look, but meanwhile, any guesses?

[LCHIEN]

yeah, how did you spread the glue and how thick was it.

My guess is that it will be stuck together anyway, laminations have a great deal of surface area.

When dealing with that much area, I'd think the objective it to get a thin layer of glue on both surfaces, well wet to the wood.
I might even dampen the wood just a tad to make sure the glue wets completely to the wood. That means spread it on, squeegee it around, wipe off the excess and then press together as best as possible.

[gwyneth]

yeah, how did you spread the glue and how thick was it.

My guess is that it will be stuck together anyway, laminations have a great deal of surface area.

When dealing with that much area, I'd think the objective it to get a thin layer of glue on both surfaces, well wet to the wood.

The last paragraph made me laugh out loud because that objective was met way too well.

This stuff has the consistency of jello when it's still goopy--so pretty thin. I used a foam brush to spread it, and there was lots of it--so much that the pieces were kind of sliding around on it until I straightened them up. Then it oozed and dripped out of the sides when the weight went on.

One of the things I'm wondering about is the effect on the particle board. I didn't weigh it to even the glue spread, more to keep the particle board and the thin plywood from warping.

[cabinetman]

You should have a pretty good sandwich there. I don't think they will be coming apart anytime soon.

[SARGE..g-47]

Morning GW..

If I am laminating large pieces, I usually opt for a 4"-6" wide medium stiff nylon brush as used to clean in the bath-room, kitchen, etc. The foamy is not stiff enough or wide enough to spread quickly and evenly IMO. With a 6" wide brush, you can pull or push two handed much as you would with a hand scraper.

And come to think of it, an old hand held scaper blunted would probably do the trick also. I'll try that sometime.

Regards...

[LCHIEN]

Morning GW..

If I am laminating large pieces, I usually opt for a 4"-6" wide medium stiff nylon brush as used to clean in the bath-room, kitchen, etc. The foamy is not stiff enough or wide enough to spread quickly and evenly IMO. With a 6" wide brush, you can pull or push two handed much as you would with a hand scraper.

And come to think of it, an old hand held scaper blunted would probably do the trick also. I'll try that sometime.

Regards...

I would take a strip of scrap wood with a smooth, straight edge (why then, would it be scrap, eh?) and use that to spread a fine, thin layer of glue. Literlally squeegee it on. Or,a rubber squeegee would work, too, but if the wood is flat and the scrap flat, it would work, I think.

[wardprobst]

You can buy notched trowels in the floor departments at the big box stores. They are designed for spreading glue for carpet, tile or wood. The plastic ones work well for this application, the metal ones are for mastic and are harder to clean up than the plastic when you use Titebond or PVA.
DP

[SARGE..g-47]

Afternoon Loring...

And the scrap of wood would work as a sraper would. I just went down to the shop and tested both methods as I have declared today "piddle around" day. The only draw-back I found is with too much pressure on the spreader as you mentioned, you end up with excessive glue on it instead of the glue-up when you clear the end with a pass. But.. both definitely work.

I like the medium stiff brush better than both those methods though as the glue will disperse between the bristles and not as much excessive ends up on the bristles at the end of a pass. Kind of like those tile layers trowels that they applie adhesive with. Those little sqiggly thingys (I don't have a clue what they are called) let the adhesive channel and more stays where you want it to be. ha.. ha...

But... if the area is really large, I do believe I would opt for the flat surface spreader as it would spread even quicker than the bristles but at the expense of having more glue waste when compete.

Regards...

[gwyneth]

Having spread literally gallons of several types of glue in the last year laminating very large sheets of cardboard for structures and furniture, here's my take on spreaders.

Squeegees work pretty well for yellow glue, if you work quickly enough.

The fake credit cards that come with junk mail are also good to keep around for spreading glue (and also assorted patching materials for wood, plaster, etc.)

Cheap paint roller covers are very good for large area surfaces (of course, with a roller frame). Those cheesy 'trimming sets' with a really cheap small roller and flimsy tray are also good, for smaller areas.

Chocolate syrup bottles (after washing in the dishwasher) with pop-up tops are better for gluing than most glue bottles--more comfortable to hold, output slightly more controllable.

For small areas, if the glue is not too thick, those envelope moisteners (tube plus sponge applicator at end) work, particularly if you've also put some glue on the surface.

You can thin Elmer's enough to run it through an artists airbrush, though I'm not sure there's a woodworking application.

The problem with my lamination last night was not spreading--but gloppiness.

If we knew that clear PVA actually worked to adhere particleboard to plywood, I wouldn't be so worried--an effective mess is no problem, an ineffective mess means not just cleaning it up, but cleaning off the materials and figuring out how to undo any damage before re-doing it.

[LCHIEN]

I think PVA, Elmer's glue, and all the Elmers woodworking glues are closely related. Probaby the results will be similar.

[Russianwolf]

I think PVA, Elmer's glue, and all the Elmers woodworking glues are closely related. Probaby the results will be similar.

yep

It's been shown that the only difference between the clear/white glues and the yellow "eood" glues are additives to decrease open time. I often uses white when I'm laminating something that needs more open time. Haven't had a break yet.

Gwenyth, I don't think you are likely to have a problem. Othe than cleaning up the edges that is.

[gwyneth]

I just checked it and discovered that there were still some wet puddles next to the stack. I pulled the weights and covers off.

The bottom two layers--the cheap softwood 1/4" plywood and particle board were definitely stuck together--and a little to the brown paper covering the table (most of which peeled off the outside of the bottom plywood.

The top layer--the oak 1/4" plywood, was clearly not sticking at the corners and when I tested, it came off completely. That side of the particle board was still very wet except for a few inches around the edges. There was still a wet coating on the underside of the oak plywood.

I'm guessing that the particle board kept soaking up the glue and it permeated through it, sort of draining the outer parts of the top.

I was going to squirt some Titebond on and try again but I decided to wait until the clear PVA glue-soaked particleboard layer thoroughly cures; it and the oak plywood are drying separately.

My reasoning is that the Titebond III I generally use would cure much faster than the PVA-soaked particleboard middle layer.

At least with paper-pulp construction and engineering, it's a terrible idea to have something fast-drying and largely water-resistant on the outside of something slow-drying and wet. At best the inside can take a long, long time to dry under those conditions and at worst can distort and mold.

Particleboard probably isn't that different.

The Titebond should stick the top layer (the oak plywood) onto the middle layer just fine after the clear PVA dries.

What's sort of interesting is that the paper and paper pulp structures we do never use the clear PVA as an adhesive, but as a preliminary sealer on the outside. So it may act as a 'size' on the particleboard to make it less absorbent.

Thanks again for all the input and hand-holding!

[Imadunatic]

I read somewhere that a hacksaw blade set into a piece of wood for a handle is also a great glue spreader for lamintations, never tried it, but it makes sense i guess.

[docrowan]

Hey Gwyneth,

You alluded a couple of times on posts in this thread to building something with large sheets of cardboard and even using Elmer's in an artist's airbrush. Don't mean to pry and you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but I'm curious about what it is you're doing.

[gwyneth]

Hey Gwyneth,

You alluded a couple of times on posts in this thread to building something with large sheets of cardboard and even using Elmer's in an artist's airbrush. Don't mean to pry and you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but I'm curious about what it is you're doing.

Since I took early retirement, one of the things that keeps me busy is making paper.

Last year, for an Earth Day project, I was volunteered into making an exhibit about recycling paper and cardboard. The cardboard part included cardboard and pulp furniture, a project that lasted several months past Earth Day.

The results were a large computer desk and a number of small bookcases.

The computer desk was made from plans posted on the net by a long-time woodworker (I'm pretty sure it was originally developed for plywood, being simple slot and drop).

Done correctly, cardboard laminations can be as strong as plywood (though much thicker). Recycled paper pulp can be even stronger; there's something called paper-crete, but I haven't gotten into that yet.

A chairmaker in the 60s and 70s (famous, but I can't remember his name right now) did a lot of cardboard chairs (cutting and bending laminations like some wood methods, with a narrow cross-section of a very thick stack), some of which are now in museums and other examples of which cost thousands of bucks.

An architect/designer in Japan, after achieving great success with some extremely expensive chairs made from cardboard mailing tubes and such, has gone on to develop cardboard houses.

In some ways, MDF could be considered a form of paper, or at least a cousin.

Once the wood pulp process for making paper was industrialized, a bunch of Victorian manufacturers made pressed and formed furniture, panels, and other inexpensive household goods with it.

Here's a picture of the cardboard desk.