GFCI in an old house

[JimD]

We bought the oldest house I have owned in October. It's redeeming property is the back yard - a large lake. We also got it at a good price for a lake property but that was because it is 46 years old and not much is up-to-date. That includes a total lack of GFCI outlets. I've installed them before but that was for a new circuit. So I know they go first. When I opened the box for the first outlet, I read the instructions and found out that I needed to figure out which of the wires coming to the old outlet fed power in. I did that. So I hooked the wires of power coming in to the "line" terminals and the other wires to the "load" terminals of the GFCI. When I turned the circuit back on, it would not reset. The instructions say that would be because the line and load are reversed. So I took off what I thought was the line and wired it back to the old outlet. I plugged in the lamp I was using to test the circuit and turned the circuit back on. The lamp was lit. So I wired it correctly.

So what do I do? Do GFCI's only work if they are the first outlet in a circuit? That isn't what the instructions said but I know that is what is intended. Finding the first outlet will not be simple. I already know of one circuit that powers things on both floors of the house, including a bathroom. So there is no telling what all is on that circuit. And finding the first outlet would be a challenge. I'd have to take outlets out, one at a time, until I find the first one. That will take a lot of time and a lot of walking to the circuit breaker box. And if I miss one...

Any ideas?

[woodturner]

So what do I do? Do GFCI's only work if they are the first outlet in a circuit?

No, they do not have to be the first receptacle.

What did you use for the ground wire? A GFCI trips due to:
1. A current imbalance between the hot and neutral
2. Current flow in the ground

If you don't have a good ground, that can cause them to trip. In addition, if you have leakage in the circuit or two circuits tied together at some point, that can cause them to trip.

[lrr]

I would think you could narrow down the choices of which one is first, by picking the one that seems to be the closest to the breaker box. It is unlikely that whoever wired the house wasted much Romex, and so they picked the shortest paths.

Pull one outlet, and then check the others for power. If you have enough lamps, plug them into all outlets, and that way you get a quick visual indication that none are getting power when you disable the "supposed" first outlet. I would think you might only have to test a couple to determine which is your first. If not, the electrician that wired your home must have had a really good reason to wire a distant outlet first!

[dbhost]

If the electrical is that much of an unknown quantity in that home, expecially since you said it was 46 years old, that puts it at 1968, meaning most likely aluminum wire... You might want to get a few quotes on upgrading to fully copper / new panel / outlets etc... I couldn't be happier with how mine turned out. The contractor replaced my panel, ran the sub and new circuits, and replaced the wiring for 3 circuits that was causing us trouble. It has been hassle free since...

[JimD]

The wiring is copper, everywhere I have messed with it. The panel is too small but that won't get fixed soon (planned when the shop garage is added).

I googled GFCI problems after posting this and found the ground to neutral as a high potential problem - and no indication I need to connect to the first outlet of a circuit. I found one post where they had not and it worked fine. I did not look closely at the ground wire in the box but it was connected to the ground of the old outlet and the romex looked newer. While this house is old it has been expanded several times. Some of the wiring has no ground but this outlet did. That outlet did not have the neutral and ground touching because it was hanging out of the box when I tested it.

Two things I could check are whether both sides of this outlet are "line". That would be bad but it would be good to know. I could also closely examine the ground in this box and make sure they didn't hook the ground to the neutral as a way of providing a ground - also bad but more easily fixable. If those things don't check out then it would seem one of the downstream outlets has the neutral touching the ground. Or possibly a bad GFCI.

I also saw a recommendation to hook both sides to the line - best to use a pigtail which I would do. Would that work? I am not trying to protect downstream outlets.

[tlt]

Another option, if your panel takes them, is to install GFCI breakers. The reset button is in the panel, and covers the entire circuit.

The downside is, these breakers run around $40 or more apiece.

[JimD]

I thought of the breakers but the panel is so small that it uses a lot of half breakers - two 120V circuits in one spot. I don't think GFCI breakers come that way - but I will google it.

[JSUPreston]

I thought of the breakers but the panel is so small that it uses a lot of half breakers - two 120V circuits in one spot. I don't think GFCI breakers come that way - but I will google it.

I know I've added to a conversation on here a while back about half breakers. When our service was upgraded from 100amp to 200amp a few years ago, the primary panel was upgraded, but for some reason, the electrician that did the job used a couple of those half breakers, even though there is plenty of room in the panel. One nearly caused a fire...it was sparking inside the panel and never tripped. A different electrician was called out. He replaced the half breakers with full size, and told us that his opinion was that half breakers should never be used, unless the panel is completely full. Apparently he had previous bad experiences with them.

In other words, check those half breakers regularly, and be careful.

[Condoman44]

I am in a 1959 ranch mostly without a ground at outlets. I have used the GFCI breakers where needed and outlets also.

You will need to take the time to find the correct outlet to at the least fix the code required outlets near water issue. There are some inexpensive circuit tracing tools and non contact voltage detectors available at the big box stores.

What ever you do is turn off the power before working on the circuit.

[LCHIEN]

you don't have to place the GFCI at the first outlet but if you place it elsewhere there will be no protection between the breaker and the GFCI, only downstream from the GFCI.
THis is because the GFCI only detects current imbalance in the line and neutral flowing through it. If there is a ground fault between the breaker where line current flows to ground instead of neutral that current will bypass the GFCI AND NOT be detected.

Are you putting GFCIs on all the circuits or only the ones potentially near water like kitchen bath and outdoor/garage outlets?

[JimD]

Loring,

I'm trying to do the code required outlets. I am starting with the 4 in bathrooms. I didn't work on it after the initial failed attempt that prompted the post but will, possibly this weekend. I need to be home during daylight because the outlet circuit is also the light circuit in at least the first bathroom and one of the others.

Since a ground is not necessary for the GFCI, it seems like I might stop the "no reset" of the GFCI by not connecting the ground. First order of business will be some checking of the circuit to see what is on it and which outlet seems to be first. I might be able to cover both sinks of the MBR (which are separated) with one outlet if I figure out which is first. If that doesn't work, disconnecting the ground and re-trying seems worth a test. If that doesn't prove successful, pigtailing the connection and eliminating use of the load terminals also seems worth a try since I can protect outlets one by one. If none of that works, I will be back to reinstalling the non-protected outlets and thinking about it some more.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.

We're trying to upgrade this house where-ever possible but it has also functioned fine for 46 years now. The GFCIs add some safety that would be welcome but they aren't our highest priority. With the winter we've been having, we had to do something about insulation which we've helped but still has opportunities. It also needs windows, another garage bay, and another bedroom in the walk in attic. After both daughters are away at school, the bath on the main floor needs expanded to 1.5 baths. So lots of other things need done, the GFCIs were meant to be a "little job" I could do in an hour or so. It's turning into more that than but it happens.

[woodturner]

I need to be home during daylight because the outlet circuit is also the light circuit in at least the first bathroom and one of the others.

I have recently discovered "headlights" like this one - well worth the $3/2 cost, and provide a lot of hands-free light. They are great for working on wiring, under the car, etc.

Since a ground is not necessary for the GFCI, it seems like I might stop the "no reset" of the GFCI by not connecting the ground.

That's fine, and one benefit of GFCIs is that they can be used to provide a "virtual ground". If only the input hot and neutral are connected, but the output ground from the GFCI is connected to the downstream receptacles, a virtual ground is created. This ground will protect human life but will not adequately protecte electronic equipment.

[cwsmith]

Not actually seeing your situation, it would be difficult at best to advise you. But let me say that your house isn't particularly old, and depending on who did the original wiring, I would certainly think it should be fairly up to date at least with regard to wire type (black, white, and ground wires).

Here in NY, 12/2 and 14/2 (with ground wire) was certainly in common use in the very early 60's, when I used to work with my Dad. He wasn't an electrician, but we did wire in a lot of new furnace installations and silver-gray, cloth-covered 'romex' was the standard of the time.

I'm am NOT an electrician, and don't pretend to be one. However, I do have two houses, one in Painted Post, NY and one in Binghamton, NY. The former house was built in the 1920's and in all the wiring there was simple 2-conductor, cloth covered conductors in a cotton-hemp sheathing, no ground wire, with a 60-amp fuse panel. Thanks to being stood-up by an electrician, a friend and I put in a new 200 amp service in 1989, and I have since re-wired the entire house... all passing inspection.

Here in Binghamton, we've been in this house a bit over seven years and I've rewired the basement, kitchen, library, and attic; having had an electrician upgrade this service to 200 amp when we first bought this 1887-built home. The old wiring here was updated somewhere in the 30's (best guess, by the wire and fixtures)... most all of that has since been replaced. I recently had my electrician (licenced Master) run a 100-amp to the garage, and I do have him okay my wiring projects and help out with any troubleshooting.

I am puzzled by your indication that the wires need to be switched (IIRC) for you to use the GFCI, and am wondering if the wires were wrongly installed in the panel itself. Also wondering about that panel, but perhaps I've missed something in my reading here so far. I am often mystified by some of the practices that people, even if they were electricians, have used in the past. I've found crossed ground wires (from two different circuits), two different circuits in the same box, hidden boxes, etc. (Doing this stuff in old houses is like solving a dangerous puzzle or uncovering a slow-fused booby trap.)

In my Painted Post house, I've run across a lot of 'knob-and-tube', most branched off with cloth-covered 2-conductor to the actual switches and outlets. So old that it was difficult to actually see much distinction between black or white. Further problem has been the lack of boxes, or hidden boxes, and an awful lot of in-wall splices, especially in the kitchen which we stripped right down to the bare studs. What was 'best practicd' back then, is a nightmare today, and I've adopted an attitude of just running new wire when facing such projects.

The Binghamton house was upgraded sometime in the 30's, as mentioned, and again in the 80's. But when putting in the new service, we discovered an awful lot of dead wire throughout the house, really confusing circuitry, with upstairs circuits tied to remote outlets on the first floor, etc. With almost 2800 sq ft, the whole house, including the garage was only on six circuits. We now have that separated into 18 circuits.

While copper prices have skyrocketed in recent years, I still think it best to rewire as much as possible, if you can do so without destroying too much of the walls and ceiling.

CWS

[JimD]

All the wiring I've found has been plastic covered. The oldest seems to have a blue outer covering. But the wire in the box I had problems with had white outer plastic and had a ground. So I am guessing it is newer. The house has been added onto several times. This circuit is in the master bath area (my wife's sink) and we know the master bedroom is newer. The large walk-in closet seems to have formerly been a bedroom. One of the clues it is newer is the smaller dimensional lumber in the ceiling joists. It uses 2x6s, which is fine for the span in an attic. But the adjacent areas are 2x10s. That wood has noticably fewer knots and seems straighter and is certainly darker. So we think it is older.

I agree this isn't a terribly old house, just the oldest I have owned. My mom had a house with a rubble stone foundation that originally had knob and tube. I added a couple outlets to her bedrooms (which had only one) and had to snake wire above the massive rubble stone wall and past the lath and plaster of the walls. Nothing in my house is like that. The walls are wallboard, the wiring is at least similar to if not the same as you would buy today. Copper supply lines for plumbing. Drains are a mixture of plastic and cast iron. Where they connect they have the no-hub rubber couplings with clamps. I checked all this out before we purchased it. There is one poorly installed drain (2x10 chewed away to near nothing for no good reason) but otherwise I am pretty impressed with most of the previous work.

I havn't really counted 120V circuits but I must have at least 10. I know one stretches too far and I'll probably fix that when it's turn in line comes. I don't currently plan to change them out just for having no ground, however. Maybe in a few years if I get bored. But in the area of the house I'm working, there are grounds. That could be part of my problem. I've also found wires to be properly twisted together before the wire nut was applied with pigtails where necessary. Wiring of this outlet was around the screw (not poked in the back) and all the way around it. Seems to be professionally done. I've had problems with work done by professionals before too but at least they tend to have good practices. The previous owner also doesn't seem to have "cheaped out" on the way things were done.

I am not sure who did one of the staircases, however. It looks nice but the rises on the first 3 stairs is uneven and too much to meet code. It's hard for me to believe a real carpenter did it. I think it was the homeowner. It's on the list to get attention at some point.

Jim

[JimD]

Well I finally got it to work today, and even did a second one. The first was still a struggle. I traced the circuit some but didn't take other things apart. I just hooked the line side of the outlet up and it worked! Then I connected the ground and it still worked! But when I hooked the outlet side up, it stopped working. So I pigtailed it and it worked, sort of. If the light wasn't on, I could wiggle the outlet and it would come on. Sometimes one outlet worked and sometimes both worked. So I tried another outlet. Consistent success! I don't know how much of my earlier problem was the outlet but I don't think it all was. I left the pigtail in place. The downstream outlets do not need GFCI protection. I should have tried the new outlet earlier.

When I opened up two other bathroom outlets I got surprises. The first additional outlet is on the same circuit as the one that gave me so much trouble. It has four wires going to the outlet. Two whites on each white screw and two blacks on each black. I pigtailed this. The second new outlet had electrical tape over twisted together wires. So I got the wire nuts and removed the tape. I found the connection soldered! I know that isn't up to code but the soldering looked good so I retaped it and installed the GFCI. I think soldering may actually be better as long as it is done well - which this appeared to be.

I'm going to have things to do for awhile. I need to do some re-wiring which will happen when the downstairs bathroom gets remodeled.

I got another surprise of another type. When I went to do the other daughters bathroom I found a GFCI! So the house isn't totally devoid. So now even with the bad one I have enough to cover the 4 bathroom sinks.

Thanks again for your thoughts.