water heater leaked, what do i do now?

[Chris_B]

how do you replace the anode in a water heater? i thought they were sealed units?

www.waterheaterrescue.com has pics, instructions and parts.

As I indicated in my post above (#7), the only tricky bit is getting enough leverage to remove the anode from the old water heater:


The anode hex nut usually looks like this:

From the site: "A typical water heater top. Many have the hex-head anode exposed, as here. Others have it under a plastic cap, but in about the same position. A few have it under the sheetmetal. And on some, a combo anode is in the hot port, as in the position of the pink-topped nipple."

For models without an exposed anode, you can use a "combo anode" on the inlet to functionally replace the inaccessible anode:


In my case, I replaced the standard anode AND added the inlet combo anode to effectively double the time until the anode needs replacement.

[woodturner]

i didnt realize that they were that cheap....does that mean their quality is not compromised? its cold tonight, i will measure that water temp to get how cold it can be....but in the summer, the cold water is actually warm, so i am sure the temp difference at that time wont be much.

No, it's a top quality unit. The brand I bought is Paloma, a rebranded Rheem. Big hint - there is apparently a large markup on tankless water heaters. HD offered me 20% off their retail price and increased it to about 30% off when I asked "is that the best price you are able to give me?"

As long as your water lines are below the frost level where they enter the house, 50F should be a reasonable design temperature. The earth tends to stay around 50F year round, four feet or so from the surface (at least in the midwest US).

Regarding the install, the installation manual the came with the unit was thorough, detailed, and easy to follow. There are also some guides on the internet, though I didn't find them terribly helpful.

Another thought - if your water heater is only leaking a little, you may be able to temporarily patch it with epoxy to buy you a few days. That would allow you to have hot water while giving you a little breathing room to install a tankless.

FWIW, my gas usage for hot water has declined about 40% with the tankless. That's typical for tankless heater - IF your usage patterns are well suited for a tankless. A storage water heater uses a lot of gas to maintain temperature - so if you draw hot water relatively infrequently, it wastes a lot of gas reheating the same water between uses, while the tankless heats only the water that is used.

A large family with many children and nearly constant washing, showering, etc. will probably not save much energy with a tankless. In this case, the tank heater is heating water that is used rather than reheating the same water multiple times.

[woodturner]

replacing the anode in a tank type water heater every 3-4 years will greatly increase the life of a water heater if it it heating softened water.

Or even with hard water.

However, many manufacturer's stopped making heaters with replaceable anodes ten to fifteen years ago. Technically, they are replaceable, but they essentially require removal and reinstallation of the hot water heater, so it is not worth doing. FWIW, the OPs unit is a Bradford-White - and the BW I had put the anode in the water intake, so it could not be practically replaced.

Another issue is that if the anode has never been removed and the tank is several years old, the anode may not come out very readily and may damage the tank in removal, requiring the tank to be replaced.

If you have a newer tank with a separate anode and can get it loosened without applying too much force, annual check of the anode is a good idea and may extend the life of the tank a couple of years.

[woodturner]

I'd love a tankless, but the 3/4" gas pipe requirement is making that difficult in our house. Gas meter is about 60 ft from where the heater would need to sit, and it is not a straight run either.

I thought that, too - until I realized that when the tankless manufacturer said 3/4" pipe, they mean OD, not ID. So, the 1/2" pipe that feeds my furnace and existing hot water heater was what they meant.

Not sure why they specify it "funny", but if you have a gas line for a furnace, tank hot water heater, or gas dryer, it should be enough for an appropriately sized tankless heater. If you need a very large tankless, they do require a 1" gas line - but often, in a large house, you would be better off to install two smaller units anyway.

[woodturner]

Most tankless heaters we looked at had 5 to 10 year warranties, so we figured we probably wouldn't get 20 years of life out of one anyway, so we'd likely never break even, much less save money.

What brands? I found a number of tankless heaters with 15 to 20 year warranties.

FWIW, with two adults and reasonable gas usage, the payback period tends to be in range of two to four years - IF you install it yourself.

Professional installation is in the range of $1500 around here - so that really affects the payback period.

Put another way, if you install it yourself, the net installed cost after tax credits will likely make the cost of a tankless less than a the cost to purchase the tank heater.

[woodturner]

For you guys switching to tankless, did you have to increase the size of your gas line from the meter to the water heater?

No, not at all. The gas line that provides gas to the tank heater is usually sufficient.

Think about it - they both are supplying the same output heat, but the tank heater wastes 40% or so, so it needs more gas than the thankless. The tankless uses gas at a faster rate for shorter periods of time, so it sort of balances out.

[LCHIEN]

No, not at all. The gas line that provides gas to the tank heater is usually sufficient.

Think about it - they both are supplying the same output heat, but the tank heater wastes 40% or so, so it needs more gas than the tankless. The tankless uses gas at a faster rate for shorter periods of time, so it sort of balances out.

That's probably an incorrect assumption.

The tankless must provide all the heat instantly at a 100% rate. That does mean it can provide water for a shower all day.
Even if one shower is taken per day the gas piping still has to be sized for the peak heating load which is the baseline for this discussion.


The tanked heater only provides hot water part of the time from the stored tank where it can take much longer to heat it and store it so the peak rate will be much lower..
Lets assume a tanked heater is sized to provide enough water for two 15-minute showers and has to recover in 3 hours. That's 30 mins/hour or ~16% duty cycle. (note I made these times up off the top of my head but they would seem reasonable)
Allowing for 40% loss, then that's about 1.4 x 16 or 23.4% of the peak rate.

So the maximum heat rate use of the tanked unit is approx 1/4 that of the tankless.
So even with the inefficiency taken into account the tankless peak rate use (on demand rather than stored) will be 4 times as high.
Correspondingly the gas line requirements would be for four times the flow.

So there's a very good chance you would have to replumb your gas lines. or run a high amperage 220V dedicated line to the tankless heater if its electric (do they even make them?)

Incidentally, if you want to use your dishwasher, or a clotheswasher, or have another bathroom where someone else is taking a shower, then the gas flow rate and the heater size must be correspondingly increased for the tankless unit to handle simultaneous loads.

[Kristofor]

I replaced my water heater 4 years ago. The same month my neighbor installed a tankless water heater. I wish I had. It made a huge difference in not only control of water heat, but also his utility bills... When this one goes, I am going to go tankless for sure...

There is a purchase price listed in this thread that was under $600 for a tankless unit. If that's the price you can find for a unit sized for your need then the payback window (and outright purchase price)works. When I looked at units sized for our house prices were closer to a couple grand. Considering my gas bill is ~$10/mo for water heating (conventional, power vent) it would need to almost entirely eliminate that to make financial sense.

BTW, we have gas and i have a water softener in the house. i use salt, not protassium as the agent. i read some where, that the water heater life will be around 5-7 years for someone running a water softener.

If you keep the annode in good shape the tank itself will last practically forever.

how do you replace the anode in a water heater? i thought they were sealed units?

There are pics below in the thread, but the biggest piece of advice is to do it when the heater is new, and even then I needed a cheater over four feet long.

Put another way, if you install it yourself, the net installed cost after tax credits will likely make the cost of a tankless less than a the cost to purchase the tank heater.

I didn't see a picture where the math was even close when I looked, but that was mostly driven by unit cost, and low total gas usage for water heating. For folks who can find a $600 unit that will work for them then it's a much easier call. I think it's probably helpful that production volume will continue to ramp up making repair parts more available and keeping prices down.

[footprintsinconc]

how'd you get them to offer you 20% discount off of retail? i need know the secret behind that since i am headed that way.

btw, i just got back from hd and i found out that you need 3/4" inside diameter to feed to it to keep up with gas demand when its on. 2ndly, i will need to go with a heavier guage exhaust duct, and based on the pricing, its very expensive....the unit was for $1k + cost of ducting and then the duct cap unit (on the roof) was like for $350!!

so i have two options:

1. someone is offering to install a bradford white or rheem unit that is energy star rated for $640 with a 6yr warranty, i can purchase it upto 10yr for an additional $150. if it goes bad under warranty, its free replacement but with a labor cost of $250 to $300.
2. or i can buy the 12yr warrenty GE unit at HD for $600 + taxes. its energy star rated. if it goes bad, then i have to just replace it myself....

now at the same time, i read online not to buy the stuff from lowes and HD, and it turns out that there are plumbers who are saying that because they install the other brands and i guess they loose business when someone installs their own....so i don't know what to trust anymore....

i'm leaning towards option 2, what do you guys think?

[woodturner]

Lets assume a tanked heater is sized to provide enough water for two 15-minute showers and has to recover in 3 hours.

A typical recovery time for a gas hot water heater is 15 to 30 minutes, in my experience and investigation. I would argue a 50% duty cycle is a more reasonable assumption, and leads to a 70% of peak rate assumption or about 3/4 of the rate of the tankless.

So there's a very good chance you would have to replumb your gas lines. or run a high amperage 220V dedicated line to the tankless heater if its electric (do they even make them?)

If that were the case, tankless heaters would require large gas lines - but they don't. Sure, if you want a unit that can supply 20 gpm at a 90F temperature rise, you are going to need a 1" gas line. For most heaters designed for residential use, though, the standard 3/4" gas line is specified.

Electric tankless heaters are available, but the logistics often don't work out. The cost of venting is avoided and the heater can be located anywhere, but the service panel may have to be upgraded to 400A to accomodate the heater. A 200A draw at 220VAC is not out of the question for a larger electric tankless. In my opinion, the "sweet spot" is the gas tankless rather than the electric tankless heaters.

Incidentally, if you want to use your dishwasher, or a clotheswasher, or have another bathroom where someone else is taking a shower, then the gas flow rate and the heater size must be correspondingly increased for the tankless unit to handle simultaneous loads.

No disagreement there, as stated earlier. However, even the smallest "whole house" units provide enough flow for a low flow shower head and modern appliances. As I said earlier, my 4.2 gpm unit is fine with a 1.8 gpm shower head, a current moderate efficiency dishwasher, and a recent top load clothes washer all running at the same time, with 0F outside temperature.

[vaking]

Conventional water heaters come with warranty 6 or 9 or 12 years depending on quality. Unit that came with new construction likely was the cheapest - 6 year warranty from the time it was purchases, not the time you closed on a house. This means warranty on yours has recently expired. Longer warranty translates into better quality units, heavier insulation so you waste less energy maintaining water temperature, glass lined tank, etc. In my opinion buying extended warranty on a cheap unit makes no sense, you will be better off buying unit wth 12 year manufacturer warranty. I had replaced mine with conventional heater with 12 year warranty.

[woodturner]

When I looked at units sized for our house prices were closer to a couple grand.
...
For folks who can find a $600 unit that will work for them then it's a much easier call.

A couple of grand for the equipment itself? For a gas tankless? How long ago?

The highest price whole house gas tankless I could find in a quick search of the internet was around $1500, which would be $1050 after the tax credit. Power vent tank heaters start at around $800, $250 less net.

I feel like I'm missing something in your calculations - I'm not seeing the couple of grand cost difference (unless you are including the $1500 to $2000 cost of professional installation).

[woodturner]

how'd you get them to offer you 20% discount off of retail?

Same way I always do - I just nicely ask them if that's the best price they can offer.

You could at least use a 10% Lowes coupon, if nothing else.

btw, i just got back from hd and i found out that you need 3/4" inside diameter to feed to it to keep up with gas demand when its on.

Are you sure it is 3/4" ID and not 3/4" OD? HD does not sell any tankless heaters in my area that require a 3/4" ID, and when Rheem or Paloma says 3/4", they mean OD - it's the standard "half inch" black pipe used with most tank hot water heaters.

If you look at the gas inlet on the display model, you should see what I mean.

2ndly, i will need to go with a heavier guage exhaust duct, and based on the pricing, its very expensive....the unit was for $1k + cost of ducting and then the duct cap unit (on the roof) was like for $350!!

A tankless heater requires a stainless steel duct, and if you have to go very far, it is expensive. A tankless can be vented out the roof, but it's not the best option. Normally the tankless is mounted on an outside wall and vented directly out the wall. HD sells the vent kit that contains everything you need to vent the heater out the wall, but their prices are high. I found a vendor online that sells the vent kit online for $150, and HD price matched that vendor.

The $1K unit is a bigger unit than I got. Are you sure you need one that large?

[*]or i can buy the 12yr warrenty GE unit at HD for $600 + taxes. its energy star rated. if it goes bad, then i have to just replace it myself....

It may be energy star rated, but it's not "energy efficient" like a tankless, and there are no tax credits to offset the cost.

Have you gotten a quote from a plumber? Around here, I found that the installed cost was about $50 more than the equipment cost, even for the lowest end units. If I had chosen that option, I would have paid the plumber the $50 to install it in 30 minutes instead of spending two hours of my time wrestling with it.

[footprintsinconc]

the installed cost for conventional type is 640. but it has 6yr warrenty. i can increase it to 10yr by paying 150 more

the cost of unit from HD is 600 with 12yr warranty. i have to install it myself.

well, hd only had one tankless unit. maybe another hd has more options. i will find out tomorrow.

the exhasut cant come out on the side because that will come out to our front door. literally at the front door. i have to go through the roof which would me 10-12ft of piping for exhaust.

[Chris_B]

Some relevant quotes from one of the major tankless manufacturer's FAQ: http://www.noritz.com/homeowners/services/faqs/

Q: Do I need to upgrade my gas line?

A: Yes. Tankless water heaters do need a larger gas line since its required Btus are higher than tank water heaters. The reason why the Btus are higher is because it needs the energy to heat the water to your set temperature in mere seconds. The actual gas line upgrade size will be depend on which tankless model you choose and the distance from the gas meter. However, the minimum gas line size is 3/4".

[YMMV, but the gas line at both of our water heaters is 1/2". ]

Q: Can I use my existing venting for my tankless water heater?

A: No. By code, tankless water heaters must use Category III stainless steel venting. Category III venting is corrosion resistant and gas tight. The venting must be corrosion resistant because a slightly acidic condensate is formed during combustion. This condensation can eat away at your current vent pipe’s galvanized metal and cause major damage to your tankless water heater's internal components. More importantly, the venting must be gas tight to avoid carbon dioxide leakage. Tankless heaters use a powered exhaust fan to push gas out, as opposed to tank water heaters which use natural draft.

[YMMV, but in our case the vents are 3" galvanized, and 4" gas-tight stainless was required by all the tankless models we considered. ]