How Similar is the BTS-21?

[dbhost]

I heard and ready plenty of good stuff about the BT3000, and have had good service from a Ryobi R161 router for a few abusive years now that I felt a Ryobi saw was in order. I bought the BTS-21 as it was reported to be the latest successor to the BT3000. I was just wondering how close it was. The Miter table is a bit tough to deal with as most jigs and stuff are designed for miter slot table saws... I came here hoping to find help in setting up my shop with jigs and the like to get productive with this saw... I am a bit concerned that maybe things will line up differently or whatever.

Can someone with more experience tell me if the jig plans and such found here will work with my saw? So far I have been WAY more impressed with my saw than my friends with Delta, Dewalt and B&D job site type saws... This one cuts straight, clean, smoothe, with no blade runout... I built some extensions for the saw using 3/4" plywood and 2x4s, which come in REALLY handy for ripping and cross cutting sheet material like plywood, etc...

[LCHIEN]

the BTS21 is not really very worthy compared to the BT3000/3100. A very different saw.

[Bill in Buena Park]

Dbhost,
Unfortunately, Ryobi has been "downscaling" their product lines away from the serious woodworking market to cater to the economy home-user market, meaning that many of their once-robust tools like the BT3k or the BS1001SV have been replaced by smaller, less versatile models. Even between similar models of some tools (like the BS902 & BS903 - both 9in band saws, but one has a different style of table on it) - only a few things may be interchangeable.

As Loring stated, the BTS-21 and the BT3k are very different, with only the sliding miter table bearing any resemblance between them.

The BT3k had miter-track accessories that could be added, but I am not aware of any such for the BTS-21. This, plus the missing T-tracks on the fence of the -21 limit your jig/fixture options.

If you have the option and really want a Ryobi BT3k saw, you can still get them used, or by the Craftsman 21829, which is the BT3k in Sears clothing, with a few extras like mitre slots, an accessory table that you can mount a router to, and a mobile stand (and occasionally available for under $400). I bought the 21829, and couldn't be happier - and it's compatible with all the BT3k stuff.

[unclecritic]

I bought the -21 with the same thoughts as you, but didnt do my research very well before I pulled the trigger.

I'm not saying its a bad saw at all, in actuality its pretty decent. But as a forum member told me, its not the same saw, not by a long shot.

If you can and really want the diversity a bt3 offers, return your -21 and buy the craftsman model like I did. If you time it right and are a craftsman club member, you can usually get it for about $100 more than you paid for the -21. But that $100 buys ALOT!

[dbhost]

Miter track accessries? You mean like a replacement table with the slot to make the table saw "normal"?

I have been figuring out how to build certain jigs. In particular box joint, and tenon jigs for this saw, but admittedly it is a pain in the tail. Aside from this miter "table" thing that is simply weird, this does seem to be a pretty good, albeit light saw.

I looked at the 21829 and aside from the fact it is 50lbs heavier than the 21, I have no idea how it differs.

Could one of you enlighten me with some more specificity of how they differ? WHAT will the extra $$ from getting the 21829 get me? I do NOT want a cabinet saw like so many guys on the other woodworking site I am on drool over. Yeah they are nice, But storage space IS a consideration as my wife wants to eventually be able to park her car in the garage... A job site saw is really my only choice here... And I used a 21 before buying it and liked how straight and easy it cut... I just want to make sure the 21829 or a used BT3x is going to buy me added function...

[LinuxRandal]

The 21829 is belt driven, where the 21 is a direct drive. I am not sure about depth of cut of the 21, or whether its rails are adjustable.
From reading the specs, the 21 has a smaller, max cut area (width of cut), accessories are not available for it (although most of those can be made here, see the FAQ's).
There may be more (awaiting LChien here) but it may not be your only option. A guided circular saw system, may work for you as well, or may not (just another option).

One more thing, that may or may not differ (no experience with the 21), how accurate is the rip fence?

There is a post here about the BT3100's dvd being on Youtube. You might look as it is very similar to the 21829 (different stand, top on the Craftsman is smooth, and it has the router part of the kit already), it could help you since you have the other one.

[unclecritic]

I'm still trying to make heads or tails of it, but you should get a copy of the FAQ from the #2 poster... not that its confusing, its just alot of information and I find myself rereading it frequently.

The main things that come to my mind (keep in mind that i have a 102 fever right now and feel like dookie) is power, real riving knife (way safer), more power, less nosie, better cut quality, added benefit of extending the rails, still somewhat "portable", and t-slots all over the place so you can build just about any jig you need/want/desire and chances are someone already has done it and the information is here...

Oh, and this forum...

I'm sure there is alot more, but my body is telling me its time to run to the potty again.

[LCHIEN]

i'm going to say the major difference is the attention to details. The BT3000 started out as a $500-6000 saw and over the 13 years or so of production the price was consistently lowered to $300 finally. The saw was designed from the start as their premier product and designed as a system saw with lots of accessorires and flexibility and some clever out of the box thinking aimed at serrious hobbiests not commercial users.
The BTS21 is simply a low cost saw with none of the thinking that makes the BT3000 so user-liked. I daresay thet BTS21 is probably more profit margin for them. The BT3000/3100 have a lot of intangibles that add up to a better machine that you can't tally in a spec sheet.
The Sears 21829 carries on most of the attributes of the BT3K, same basic design plus some new extras they felt they could charge more for.

[dbhost]

I am going to try to slip into Sears this weekend and have a look. I know I saw the Craftsman 21806 on display there, which is effectively the 21 in Sears colors... So it is obvious to me that Sears rebrands Ryobi, or Sears and Ryobi brand stuff from another vendor. Whichever way it works...

As far as crosscut capacity. Right cut too big? I can always use, and have very succesfully used, left cut with the use of extensions, specifically saw horses with well waxed tops. It works for me at least...

My main fuss with the 21 isn't accuracy of the fence, or cut. It cuts clean, fast, and straight. At least MY 21 does. I have read some reviews since I bought mine where they simply couldn't get the thing into square. Mine, and many reviewers say the same thing, was as close to square as you can get out of the box... My main fuss IS the lack of the miter slot. Some good plans for alternatively designed jigs and that problem goes away anyway...

Don't get me wrong. My time and effort is worth $$ as well... So if the BT3x is going to save me time, effort, and materials, or make the work easier or more accurate in a measurable manner, then it sounds like it would be worth it to check it out. I wish I could check one out in operation though...

Lchien, do you know anyone maybe in the Bay Area with one that would be willing to demonstrate?

[LCHIEN]

Ryobi and many other manufacturers build tools and label them for Sears to sell as Craftsman tools.

As for a Bay area demo, your best bet woud be to post a new thread - titled "Anyone willing to demo BT3x in Bay Area?" and see who responds.

[dbhost]

I looked at a 21829 at lunch, and it was REALLY beat up. (Sears should be embarassed at the condition of their demo tools!)

It was so messed up, I have no idea how the miter table was supposed to go together on that saw, or if all the parts were there or not... The miter fence looks identical to the 21, and the table differs VERY little... The main difference I was was the metal housing, a slightly different fence with some T-track, and bolts sticking into the track blocking anything that MIGHT want to slide there, and an adjustable table top that fell apart when you flipped the lever to adjust it... I am pretty sure this is NOT indicative of the quality of this saw as even the big Steel City rebadge Craftsman Professional saw was pretty beat up. The ONLY saw they had there that was not totally thrashed was the rebadged 21... Even then, the black plastic coating over the aluminum table was peeling off...

Like I said. Sears should be completely embarassed at the condition of their demo models at the Baybrook TX store...

So far the presence of the track in the fence, which I have no idea what to do with it, and the router table attachment (interesting piece for sure), and the fact it is belt drive even though I have no idea why folks say belt drive is better, seem to be the differences really...

Sorry if I seem confused. I am new again to wood working as it were. I did a lot in high school, and after 20 years out, I finally can afford to somewhat indulge that hobby again... And I never really had tools, I always used the ones in the high school wood shop... I am learning, as fast as I can!

[Bigbit]

I started out with a BTS-21 and just this week upgraded to a used BT3100. I presently have the two saws side by side in my shop.

The big differences between the saws are:

* Belt-driven blade (3100) vs. Direct drive (21)
* The 3100 uses the movable / removable front and back rails. In addition, the sliding miter table can be easily moved on the rails (horizontal travel capability about 12") and removed or rotated 180 degrees if desired. It can be mounted on either side of the table, making the SMT on the 3100 extremely versatile.
* The 21 has an SMT, but it is permanently mounted on a set of vertical slides to the left of the blade. You cannot remove the SMT or move it horizontally.
* The miter fence on the 21 uses the same extrusion as the 3100 does, but the Alu. piece is 11 1/4" long versus 14 3/4". The vertical movement possible with the SMT on the 3100 is 25.5" versus 21.5" on the 21. However, the SMT on the 21 has a second locator hole on the miter fence about 4 1/2" behind the standard one, allowing the miter fence to be moved back if further vertical distance is needed between the fence and blade.
* There is no accessory table available on the 21. There is instead a support table that can slide open to the right to support larger work pieces, but that's about it.
* The rip fence on the 3100 is made from the same extrusion as the miter fence. This means that you can use the optional t-slot options such as the miter clamps to lock down your work, and the rip fence can also be used to hold router accessories, etc. The rip fence on the 21 is just a box extrusion and cannot support these accessories. The rip fence on the 21 also seems flimsier than that on the 3100, but it does have a rear locking clamp mechanism, so it is not terrible.
* The BTS21 also has a slide-out rear support to better handle longer pieces of work.

IMHO, the BT3100 saw is targeted at the craftsperson who wants a versatile tool that he/she can use to achieve a wider range of wood cutting needs. Field portability is not its strength. The BTS21 is more geared to field / jobsite work. Its versatiliy is focused more on portability and the ability of a smaller saw to handle relatively large pieces of work.

[Gator95]

the fact it is belt drive even though I have no idea why folks say belt drive is better

Belt drive is better because:

1) motor vibration is isolated from the arbor that the blade attaches to. This should give a cleaner cut.

2) not sure this is the case with the BT3100, but because the pulley on the motor and on the arbor can be different sizes having a belt drive allows for the motor and the arbor to spin at different speeds. This can be a benefit. With a direct drive, the motor must spin at the same speed as the arbor, which will spin at the same speed as the blade.

Did you get the BT3K FAQ from Loring?

Bottom line: If you are happy with the BTS-21, then make sawdust and be satisfied. It's perfectly acceptable saw in it's category and has won some 'best value' awards for jobsite saws. Just be aware that it is not the same saw as the BT3100, so some of the mods and tuning suggestions posted by others on this site for the BT3K wouldn't necessarily apply.