Craftsman 21829

[ofna89]

What I meant by the rails was where do I adjust the numbers on the rail equal to the blade?

[Garasaki]

I think most people would tell you not to rely on the rail mounted scale. I personally set my fence with a tape measure between the fence and the near side of a tooth of the blade.

If nothing else, this allows me to position the rails where-ever they make sense (sometimes I move them to allow a table on the left of the blade, sometimes I need them all the way to the right to slide the fence on for a very wide rip cut). I think if you try to rely on the rail scale, you lose the flexibility that adjustable fences allows you.

I will say that I occasionally use the rail scale for "relative" measurements (like, "Ok, I just made that cut, now I need to make another cut with the fence slid a half inch towards the blade").

[ofna89]

For now I just put the scale at the 10" mark at the blade. I know that the scale reads say 13" inches right of the blade but I read it as 3". Its just what works for the me. I started using the ts last night and made a push block and featherboard to get use to using it and it works great. I havent owned or used any other ts so I have nothing to compare it to. The blade on the other hand!! Can anyone recommend a good all around blade to purchase?Thanks

[rlah]

I think most people would tell you not to rely on the rail mounted scale. I personally set my fence with a tape measure between the fence and the near side of a tooth of the blade.

If nothing else, this allows me to position the rails where-ever they make sense (sometimes I move them to allow a table on the left of the blade, sometimes I need them all the way to the right to slide the fence on for a very wide rip cut). I think if you try to rely on the rail scale, you lose the flexibility that adjustable fences allows you.

I will say that I occasionally use the rail scale for "relative" measurements (like, "Ok, I just made that cut, now I need to make another cut with the fence slid a half inch towards the blade").

This was very interesting to me as I was trying to keep the rails fixed at the "correct" position which leaves virtually no room for movement of the SMT on the left side. I believe this is a quirk of the Craftsman unit, not the Ryobi if I understand posts eleswhere. But I'm afraid of loosing some consistency and maybe accuracy if I move the rails around so much... any feedback on this concern?

rlah

[Garasaki]

Well, I haven't noticed a problem. I'm not pro though, I've only had my Bt3k for a few months, and I bought it used. I've ran enough wood thru it to have sort of figured out what seems to work for me, but that sure don't mean it's right!!

I have read on this forum in a number of places that checking your saw for alignment and squareness often (ie before each new cut) is a good habit to get into. So I'm sort of working like that...I don't trust the SMT much so I check that for squareness a lot. I don't check the fence often, but I do measure cuts to make sure they are the same width at each end (not that it does me much good to check my setup AFTER a cut ).

I guess for me, I'd rather have the flexibility of moving the rails then peace of mind that it's always aligned correctly. I do a such a variety of things on my saw that my table setup is always changing (SMT on, off, left side, right side, etc). I wish I just had an extended set of rails...

[fiasco]

There's a scale on the rails on the 21829???? I never bothered to look at it. I'm sliding my rails left and right depending upon the cut I need to make (or working with the router table).

The sliding miter table should clamped on the saw with the overhang to the front.

When clamping the miter table in the storage position, it snaps into two of the 4 plastic holders. You use the miter table locks (that you use to attach it to the rails when it's in use) to clamp on to the other two plastic blocks for storage.

[sparkeyjames]

My observations and opinions on the Craftsman 21829.

I just picked up the Craftsman 21829 table saw today for $399 and now that I am done with the construction and adjustment I thought I would reply to the parent post and include some of my own thoughts and observations.

I did find the instructions lacked just a little and almost seemed to be randomly organized.
Adjustment of all parts should be in the setup section and not in operations section. Router table setup and use placed last as if almost an after thought. Parts listing and explosions are as good as I have seen.

First off I have some issues with this saws construction. The thickness of the sheet metal side, front and back panels is a little on the thin side. While adjusting the blade for 90 (factory adjusted HA) I watched as I brought the saw carrier stop bolt against the stop that is welded to the inside of the front panel and noticed that it flexed the front panel. (note to self. metal cabinet needs bracing as future project). I then adjusted for 45. When that was done I went to adjust the scale indicator on the outside. Set saw to 90 and adjusted the indicator. Then moved saw to 45. oops scale seems to be off. Ah well thats why you set the stops. Suprisingly the SMT and and it's miter fence did not need any adjustment. The rip fence on the other hand presented a problem. While square front to back it proved very difficult to square top to bottom. I then chose to align the rails to the zero for right rip. This gives a hefty 30 inch rip to the right of the blade , while as mentioned in another post, allowing the SMT almost no side to side movement at all. No big thing the rails are easy to move. You just tighten down the router table on both sides and the SMT on both sides loosen all 4 rail locks and shove both rails at the same time. Ta Da.

I have issues with the poor design of the fence attachments and rail mounted miter gauge for the router table. Quite a setup nightmare in the making here. Parts are not well thought out almost like they did it as a last minute thing. The router fence attachments if set too far back will force you to have to move or remove them before cutting any thick pieces with the saw blade and the rip fence. The router fence tightening knobs can get in the way here as well.
Tip.
Attach your router to the table and move it in toward saw blade as far as possible without hampering the routers movement and you can swing the SMT 180 and place it just outside the router table . Now you have the SMT for use in routing larger pieces instead of the somewhat sloppy rail mounted mitre gauge that comes with the saw. By sloppy I mean that the guage end can be picked right up out of the slot by a good inch or more. Not good.
Why didn't they put that rail miter gauge on a T bar? Or just as good put another washer under or near the guage end to prevent it from being able to rise out of the slot. Anyone know if a 3/4 T bar will fit the router table slot? It seems to be machined for it and the washer used on the existing rail is 7/8 inch.
If you want to set up the router fence the in/out adjustment markings are only in 1/8 inch increments. This calls for setup jigs to set fence for use in some jointing operations. There is no pin or even a hole to put a pin in for freehand operations for use with a bit that has a bearing. Seems I'll have to do that myself too. Also the router fences wooden parts as installed hang about 1/8 inch above the table surface and makes it impossible to square it up with a carpenters square. This should have been left to the user to install the wooden fence parts during setup. Although the top mounted guard/dust removal attachement can be connected to a shop vac you will need a right angle attachment for the shop vac in order to make it practical. Over all my recomendation is to find an aftermarket split fence that can be attached to the back of the rip fence or one made to fit the rails on this machine and has a better dust removal port.
The shining light of this rig has to be the folding cart it rests on. Very heavy duty. Can find only one minor niggly thing wrong. The plastic caps on the ends come off too easily. Other than that 10 out of 10 on the folding cart. If you ever burn up the saw and deside to replace it with another brand get one without a cart and put it on this one.

All that and I haven't even cut a piece of wood with it yet. Too late at night now. I'm sure that with use I will find more ways to do things with this saw and also more things that I dislike.

--
If sense were common everyone would have it.

[rlah]

The above review was interesting to me (as a fellow new owner) and one I had hoped other more experienced members would respond to. Although this thread has gotten a bit long, I think it deserves more discussion on the review by sparkeyjames of the BT3Craftsman (21829).

I just picked up the Craftsman 21829 table saw today for $399 and now that I am done with the construction and adjustment I thought I would reply to the parent post and include some of my own thoughts and observations.

Always glad to read other users comments and observations... isn't this website neat?

I did find the instructions lacked just a little and almost seemed to be randomly organizedAdjustment of all parts should be in the setup section and not in operations section. Router table setup and use placed last as if almost an after thought. Parts listing and explosions are as good as I have seen.

It is bad, isn't it? I've put my manual away for just parts referencing... I'm spending all my time at this site when I want to figure out something related to this saw. Are there manuals anymore that are truly satisfying for power tool users anymore?

First off I have some issues with this saws construction. The thickness of the sheet metal side, front and back panels is a little on the thin side. .

I'll admit the thin metal sides made me wonder about the stiffness of this machine. But then I saw the thick sectioned aluminum casting inside the housing and figured there was quite a bit of strength in this. I also read the carefully prepared articles about the strengths of this machine in the articles on this website.

While adjusting the blade for 90 (factory adjusted HA) I watched as I brought the saw carrier stop bolt against the stop that is welded to the inside of the front panel and noticed that it flexed the front panel. (note to self. metal cabinet needs bracing as future project). .

I would like to see specific comments from experienced members about this.

I then adjusted for 45. When that was done I went to adjust the scale indicator on the outside. Set saw to 90 and adjusted the indicator. Then moved saw to 45. oops scale seems to be off. Ah well thats why you set the stops. .

I have not checked these angles for super accuracy but some quick cuts on thick scrap pieces showed the 90 degree setting to be surprisingly square ... out of the box from the factory... Maybe I need to double check this and the 45 degree stop.

Suprisingly the SMT and and it's miter fence did not need any adjustment. .

This was my experience... a careful check showed the SMT fence to be very square to my blade... less than .003" from front to back of the blade using a machinist's square.

The rip fence on the other hand presented a problem. While square front to back it proved very difficult to square top to bottom. .

I also found my rip fence to be very parallel to the blade... accuracy where I need it. But I do not use it for squareness top to bottom... it doesn't have near enough strength to hold in this direction... that's why I've made a tall fence "bridge" to fit over the rip fence and rest on the table for tenon-like cuts. Some plans for this are in the articles section... I revised Jim Frye's design for my own use.

I then chose to align the rails to the zero for right rip. This gives a hefty 30 inch rip to the right of the blade , while as mentioned in another post, allowing the SMT almost no side to side movement at all. No big thing the rails are easy to move. You just tighten down the router table on both sides and the SMT on both sides loosen all 4 rail locks and shove both rails at the same time. Ta Da.

I've set my "zero" point to be 10 inches as my solution to this weird problem... the rails don't stick out so far on the right side where I always seemed to bump into them.

I have issues with the poor design of the fence attachments and rail mounted miter gauge for the router table. Quite a setup nightmare in the making here. Parts are not well thought out almost like they did it as a last minute thing. The router fence attachments if set too far back will force you to have to move or remove them before cutting any thick pieces with the saw blade and the rip fence. The router fence tightening knobs can get in the way here as well.

I agree that the router hookup attachments are not top notch... but I didn't buy the saw for this reason... I'm still working to figure out using it as a secondary table to my main table so I can save setups & teardowns on my main router table... I've got more than one router. I figured I'd use this table for light cuts and non-critical cuts... maybe simple roundovers, etc. But I still haven't gotten around to using it yet.

Tip.
Attach your router to the table and move it in toward saw blade as far as possible without hampering the routers movement and you can swing the SMT 180 and place it just outside the router table . Now you have the SMT for use in routing larger pieces instead of the somewhat sloppy rail mounted mitre gauge that comes with the saw. By sloppy I mean that the guage end can be picked right up out of the slot by a good inch or more. Not good.
Why didn't they put that rail miter gauge on a T bar? Or just as good put another washer under or near the guage end to prevent it from being able to rise out of the slot. Anyone know if a 3/4 T bar will fit the router table slot? It seems to be machined for it and the washer used on the existing rail is 7/8 inch.

Interesting idea of using SMT with router setup... but again, I'll probably use my main router table for this kind of cut. But then again, I might try out this idea just to see how it works. One concern I have is that the SMT table sits above the main table by maybe .030" so it is not completely level.

If you want to set up the router fence the in/out adjustment markings are only in 1/8 inch increments. This calls for setup jigs to set fence for use in some jointing operations. There is no pin or even a hole to put a pin in for freehand operations for use with a bit that has a bearing. Seems I'll have to do that myself too. Also the router fences wooden parts as installed hang about 1/8 inch above the table surface and makes it impossible to square it up with a carpenters square. This should have been left to the user to install the wooden fence parts during setup. Although the top mounted guard/dust removal attachement can be connected to a shop vac you will need a right angle attachment for the shop vac in order to make it practical. Over all my recomendation is to find an aftermarket split fence that can be attached to the back of the rip fence or one made to fit the rails on this machine and has a better dust removal port.

Valid comments for those that want to use this router setup... but I'm too busy to try to make this factory setup do too much. It's better to get (or make) a better router table from scratch for serious routing work.

The shining light of this rig has to be the folding cart it rests on. Very heavy duty. Can find only one minor niggly thing wrong. The plastic caps on the ends come off too easily. Other than that 10 out of 10 on the folding cart. If you ever burn up the saw and deside to replace it with another brand get one without a cart and put it on this one.

My thoughts exactly... the smoothness of the folding action is surprising... just be sure everything clears when you do fold this thing up... an SMT mounted in storage position too far to the left will strike the foot and do damage... don't do this like I did.

All that and I haven't even cut a piece of wood with it yet. Too late at night now. I'm sure that with use I will find more ways to do things with this saw and also more things that I dislike.

Hope to hear more from your early cutting experiences. I'm generally pleased with the accuracy I'm getting on cutting small hardwood box pieces now.

rlah

[JR]

rlah and sparkeyjames,

You guys are doing a great job of shaking down this new saw. I'm sure all the new owners will be very glad to read your setup technique and results.

I hope you can report on something for me. None of the longtime BT3 owners can understand exactly what level of functionality to expect from the miter slots on the router table (or accessory table as we call it). In particular, is it possible to align them to the blade of the saw? There's no obvious (to me) way to do it, but it would seem an odd thing to include if this functianlity can not be realized.

Both of your comments about the router fence and table pieces are right on. The router fence attachments, dust port, inserts, etc. were all optional on the BT3 and many people found them to be of marginal utility. I'm still using mine, but intend to develop a new configuration with custom router table and fence in the near future. Having a second rip fence, with router pieces permanently installed, may be worth considering if you need the one workstation type setup.

It's also worth noting that the router stuff on the Ryobi was all in the manual that came with the optional kit. It sounds like the "Craftsman-ization" of this unit is not perfect yet.

FWIW to the several people posting about the rail adjustments: I very rarely move my rails. It might be necessary to get an extra-wide setup if you're doing wide panels, but in practice as a hobbiest this doesn't happen too often. A lot of people think that running big panels through a light saw like this can be very tricky/unsafe, so it's best to cut them down on sawhorses first. Most times this results in less than 24" rips.

Oh, and to the poeple asking about the scale on the rail: This thread has already encapsulated the entire hundreds-of-posts history of this point. Some people always learned to use a tape or rule and never even thought about using this feature. Because I don't move the rails I'm content to use the scale quite frequently. It can be setup to be very accurate, sof for some jobs you can just set the fence and go. But good practice dictates using the same rule for the measurement of the wood as well as the fence setup. If the cut needs to be perfect, always use your tape/rule to double check.

Good luck and welcome to the forum.

JR

[sparkeyjames]

Just what is the horsepower of the motor in the Craftman 21829?

After I put it all together and started out with a few cuts on some scrap (everthing was square and true yea) I decided to really look into the machine itself. I examined the parts explosion and began to wonder just how powerful the motor is in this saw. The manual lacks a true specifications page and the motor seems a little on the small side. With some investigation and and one mathimatical equation it turns out this saw is around 1.44 HP. Just not much torque. Kind of like having an extra large router motor in it. There are no spec tags on this motor at all (most electrical motors have them) makes me wonder. It is also NOT a brushless motor design. Since there are NO motor brushes in the parts list you would have to have this serviced at a Sears service depot. Add this to my dislike list. At any rate back to horsepower....

(voltage x amps)x %efficientcy / 746=Horsepower

1 horsepower = 746 watts

Given the manual stating that this is a 120 volt motor (ie U.S. household current) and is a stated 15 amp motor (right on the front of the saw case and everything wow).

(120x15)x60%=1085 equates to 1085/746 = 1.44 HP.

If you want to know how I came up with 60% effiecientcy and for more information on horsepower and electrical motors please click on this link. Good article.
http://users.goldengate.net/~kbrady/motors.pdf

-- From the shocking facts you could care less about fact book.

[LCHIEN]

After I put it all together and started out with a few cuts on some scrap (everthing was square and true yea) I decided to really look into the machine itself. I examined the parts explosion and began to wonder just how powerful the motor is in this saw. The manual lacks a true specifications page and the motor seems a little on the small side. With some investigation and and one mathimatical equation it turns out this saw is around 1.44 HP. Just not much torque. Kind of like having an extra large router motor in it. There are no spec tags on this motor at all (most electrical motors have them) makes me wonder. It is also NOT a brushless motor design. Since there are NO motor brushes in the parts list you would have to have this serviced at a Sears service depot. Add this to my dislike list. At any rate back to horsepower....

(voltage x amps)x %efficientcy / 746=Horsepower

1 horsepower = 746 watts

Given the manual stating that this is a 120 volt motor (ie U.S. household current) and is a stated 15 amp motor (right on the front of the saw case and everything wow).

(120x15)x60%=1085 equates to 1085/746 = 1.44 HP.

If you want to know how I came up with 60% effiecientcy and for more information on horsepower and electrical motors please click on this link. Good article.
http://users.goldengate.net/~kbrady/motors.pdf

-- From the shocking facts you could care less about fact book.

IF you read the BT3 FAQ (linked bleow my sig line) you'll see that the BT3 and the 21829 use a universal motor. It has some advantages and disadvantages listed in the FAQ.

No motor can produce more than about 1.5 to 2 HP (more like 1.5 if yout ake motor efficiency into account so this is as powerful as you can get in a 115V saw.

One limit of the universal motor vs a induction motor is that its not really a continuous duty kind of motor. For Hobbiest use, this is not a big limit since we tend to work intermittently even when cutting for a while we pause to move and arrange our work. It's part of the design compromise that makes the BT3 a good value for the money.

[fiasco]

IF you read the BT3 FAQ (linked bleow my sig line) you'll see that the BT3 and the 21829 use a universal motor. It has some advantages and disadvantages listed in the FAQ.

No motor can produce more than about 1.5 to 2 HP (more like 1.5 if yout ake motor efficiency into account so this is as powerful as you can get in a 115V saw.

One limit of the universal motor vs a induction motor is that its not really a continuous duty kind of motor. For Hobbiest use, this is not a big limit since we tend to work intermittently even when cutting for a while we pause to move and arrange our work. It's part of the design compromise that makes the BT3 a good value for the money.

Amazing motors these size only generate 1 to 2 hp.

My RC 20mm brushless motors from Razor in my A-10 generate over 1 HP.

[rlah]

Miter slot alignment with blade

I hope you can report on something for me. None of the longtime BT3 owners can understand exactly what level of functionality to expect from the miter slots on the router table (or accessory table as we call it). In particular, is it possible to align them to the blade of the saw? There's no obvious (to me) way to do it, but it would seem an odd thing to include if this functianlity can not be realized.

JR - good to read your (veteran) comments... Regarding the accuracy of the miter slots, I have to confess I *assumed* they were perfectly parallel to the blade... I even built a sled to fit in one of them for a cross cut sled... but your question leaves me thinking I may have assumed too much. Anyway I'll try to check for parallelism. If I can get to it, I'll try to report on this either here or in a new thread. As for how to adjust for misalignment, you are right in that there does not seem to be any. If that is the case, and the mitre slots are not aligned well, then I'll probably fiddle with some shims somewhere on the accessory table to attempt to re-align them.

rlah

[LCHIEN]

...
I hope you can report on something for me. None of the longtime BT3 owners can understand exactly what level of functionality to expect from the miter slots on the router table (or accessory table as we call it). In particular, is it possible to align them to the blade of the saw? There's no obvious (to me) way to do it, but it would seem an odd thing to include if this functianlity can not be realized.

...JR

It was my conclusion (and I think someone quoted some text from the Craftsman manual to this effect) was that the slots (inthe 21829 aux/router table were for use with the router only. Since the bit rotates in the vertical axis there's no alignment required (e.g. the table is perpendicular to the axis of rotation by design)

[JR]

When I was in Sears the other day I noticed a small difference on the 21829 from the BT3X.

On the BT3 the fron of the accy table (nearest the operator) has flanges on the left and right corners that fit over a lip on the rail. When the clampl is tightened the whole assembly is snugged up.

On the 21829 the flange is only on the front left corner and not on the front right. Is it possible this is clue to accy table alignement on the 21829?

JR