how come no more bt3100s?

[scott710]

i'm new to this tool obviously. but why is it no longer offered retail? legal problems?

[vaking]

I think the market for this saw is too small for good profits. BT3X is a light-duty saw with precision that can rival high-end cabinetmaker's equipment costing thousands. It has less power than contractor's saw so it should not be used for rough dimensional lumber. It also is somewhat delicate for professional use, it needs care to stay accurate. In all - it is a tool for a weekend warrior wtih aspirations of a cabinetmaker. People who use it do not charge by the hour and do not want to pay couple grand for one tool. That means profit margin on such saw is small and there are not that many ambitious amateurs who would buy it. Manufacturer discontinued the original version, the only one left is Craftsman variant and it is now being sold as job-site saw (folding stand on wheels).

[leehljp]

What Alex said. Well done.

The BT3 was originally designed and made as a transportable contractors saw with precision. However, it did not hold up well to being bounced around in the back of a pickup when transported from site to site. Unexpectedly for the Ryobi engineers, did find favor with home users and small workshop users who wanted or needed precision without the cost of cabinet makers saws.

[LCHIEN]

No Ryobi insider has ever told the true story.
My take was that the saw was an excercise in how can we make an inexpensive saw with bigger saw features that will work very well for moderately serious woodworkers - in less than big cabinet and contractor saws and better than the cheapest saws.

They made some inventive decisions that were outside the box that saved a lot of money and offered some neat features (remember that weight is shipping costs = money as well as user convenience).
For instance:
Front and back expandable rail system allowed big rips for panels up to 6' wide
Front and back rail system and SMT allowed alignment of the blade/SMT/rip fence to be independent of the table eliminating the need for heavy expensive trunions and miter slot.
Low cost three-point rip fence clamping to two rails is very effective compared to stiffer, heavier stronger fences clamping to only one rail
SMT allowed precision crosscutting features like expensive table saw options
Aluminum table top saved money and weight and was durable, allowed by the lack of trunions and miter slot
Trade off low cost, small size, low weight intermittent duty universal motor for deep cutting adequate for most users if used with reasonable care.
Rail system and a number of low cost accessories give rise to customization and personalization - micro adjust, router table etc.
Adjustable rails and aluminum tables system made a compact and lightweight enough saw that appealed to many with limited shop space yet could be configured for bigger projects.
A good enough for anyone but the fussiest users, 36 tooth factory blade by Freud, again very cost effective

Different people argue about the effectiveness of every one of these features and may even have an intense dislike for some of them, but in the whole they made a saw at a price point and size/weight configuration with reasonable compromises that fits the needs or desires of many weekend warriors, hence its popularity. As an engineer I find it a very satisfying design.

Why did they stop? My own reasoning:
1. didn't fit with the other Ryobi tools in the 2000's (mostly handheld, low selling price e.g. under $200, single production run, designed for selling fast and then clearing out)
2. Competed with their Ridgid line low end contractor saw (TS3660)
3. Limited distribution
4. Education issues and support issues sometimes took more effort to sell because of the "Differences" and perceived missing features e.g. cast iron, induction motor, miter slot, etc,
5. Saturated the market - BT300 and BT3100 alone (not counting the sears close variants) were on the market for 14 years, very long for most any product. Lots were sold, I estimate possibly several hundred thousands.

I think at the end their production costs were pretty low and they had lowered the price of the saw so much that maybe the price (and the yellow and blue toy handle) literally turned off some people and actually lowered their expectations of what the saw could do, resulting in a sales fall off. I actually wish they had kept the price point at 350-400 and improved the quality, features and details a bit.

[Uncle Cracker]

Gotta agree with Loring on this one... It's possible that, at a certain point, everybody who wanted or needed a BT had one. Hard to maintain accustomed sales levels on what, to Ryobi, was a big ticket item once market saturation is reached.

What I think would be interesting to Ryobi would be what the possible market might be after a few years of unavailability, given the fact that a comparable product in that lower cost segment still does not really exist. There is almost a whole new generation of "weekend warriors" in the making. The BT's have developed an almost cult-like following, and used examples are even now snapped up pretty quickly. The BT has always been, and still is, the little saw that could, and even those who have moved on to bigger and more sophisticated equipment still look back fondly on their "BT days". Frankly, I plan to be buried with mine...

[JoeyGee]

The BT's have developed an almost cult-like following

I can't believe you said "almost". I thought I had found a bona fide real live cult. Man, what does a man have to do to join a real cult anymore? Do I need to move to Texas?

[Uncle Cracker]

I can't believe you said "almost". I thought I had found a bona fide real live cult.

That was more an attempt on my part to skirt the issue, so as not to further disturb those of us who are already, uh...disturbed...

[RAFlorida]

I gotta agree with

Alex, Hank, Loring, and Uncle C about the BT3xxx. My wife bought mine over ten years ago; build our kitchen cabinets, sun room, and many odds and ends in other projects. And it's still going strong. Accurate, beautiful sound when it's running, and you can not have mine! When I'm dead, they'll have to pry my fingers from the fence. Would like to see Ryobi bring it back to life, but others give reasons why it'll not happen.
Welcome to the forum BTW! Should've said it up front but I got ramblin' about my BT3...

[Hoover]

Actually the Ryobi was the "isn't" saw.
It isn't cast iron
It isn't expensive
It isn't a saw the tool snobs love
It isn't exclusive to a select few
It isn't advertised in all the tool magazines
It isn't the saw your father owned
It isn't made anymore, Ridgid's team won out

[drumpriest]

This thread is making me miss my bt3! What these guys say is all true, the bt pioneered the consumer level saw with a riving knife and built in dust collection. The SMT has been disputed, but is novel. I built quite a few things with mine before I upgraded to a pm2000. My upgrade was motivated by needing to do some projects where ripping 2-3" hardwood was important, and I wasn't comfortable with the bt's motor. For working with 3/4" stock and the occasional heavy rip, it was great.

I agree with what these guys have said, it went away conveniently close to the ridgid ryobi merger, so it seems to me that it was too good a saw for the product divisions. They decided that Ridgid was the saw they wanted higher end consumers to use. Now that Ridgid has the granite steel city saw for 600$, that's in my mind the new BT3, best bang for the buck with some novel features.

btw, I need only visit my dad's house to pay homage to the bt3100, still going strong as he's building 3 additions onto his place, and he's called it retirement.

[kirkroy]

I'm confused about the newer direction for the BTs in the guise of the Craftsman 21829. Full retail price on them is now $529.99 (yes, discounted often but still a ridiculous starting point). The Ridgid hybrid, once it is readily available, will be less than $100 more when both saws are not discounted. Both saws are manufactured by the same group, if I'm not mistaken... They've priced it into a bad place.

[Richard in Smithville]

What the other guys said about the features on the BT that you can only find on a higher end saw. I love mine. I have cut through 4x4 sheets of 3/4 oak ply and left a better cut edge then the factory edge!

[LarryG]

I'm confused about the newer direction for the BTs in the guise of the Craftsman 21829. Full retail price on them is now $529.99 ... The Ridgid hybrid, once it is readily available, will be less than $100 more

My best guess is that the 21829 targets those who want a decent, capable saw but MUST get it out of the way when the woodworking day is done. A hybrid or contractor's saw can be rolled aside, but their footprints are still a lot bigger than a folded-up 21829. For those who have garage shops that must serve as garages first, shops second, the physically small package of the 21829 could be worth the extra money.

There's also the potential job site market. As has been mentioned, the BT3x00 proved less than satisfactory in this role, but part of that was probably because it didn't have a folding stand and wheels. That left its contractor-owners with no option but to pick it up by the rails and heave it into the back of the pickup. The 21829 is now more like the folding Bosch, and might do better.

[pelligrini]

I also wonder if aluminum prices were a factor too. I tried looking for some historical pricing, but it's not easy to find. Looks like there was a big increase mid-early-2000's.

Some of the changes between the BT and the 21829 reduced the amount of aluminum used. Thinner front & back rail extrusions, etc.

[LCHIEN]

I'm confused about the newer direction for the BTs in the guise of the Craftsman 21829. Full retail price on them is now $529.99 (yes, discounted often but still a ridiculous starting point). The Ridgid hybrid, once it is readily available, will be less than $100 more when both saws are not discounted. Both saws are manufactured by the same group, if I'm not mistaken... They've priced it into a bad place.

I think you are confusing apples and oranges here.
The 21829 is a Craftsman product, made by Ryobi but marketed by Sears. That means that sears dictated what they wanted, and it appears that they are targeting the portable job site saw market with the new base/wheels etc which adds cost to the saw. Aslo the router kit is included, another bump in price. Anyway the price is set by Sears for what they think THEIR customers will pay. Obviously the wholesale OEM price paid by Sears to Ryobi is less, and Ryobi probably did not know exactly what Sears intended to sell it for. Actually I don't think Sears knows what they are selling it for at any given moment.

Anyway, it competes only indirectly with the Ridgid saw, since they are exclusively sold by two different retailers and the portable/light weight, smaller footprint 21829 is pretty different from the Ridgid Hybrid.

"manufactured by the same group" has very little to do with anything here.