Working from the Side

[jackellis]

In a topic in the Project Discussions forum on making a blanket chest, Cabinetman has this to say about working from the left or right side of the saw:

I personally wouldn't feel either comfortable or safe operating from the side of the saw.

I've done this with my BT (though not with my much larger Jet saw), especially early on because it kept me out of the way of any kickback and I did feel more comfortable.

I'd be curious about what others think, especially with respect to safety. I'm not looking to pick an argument with Cabinetman or claiming that he's wrong - just interested in a civil discussion.

[LCHIEN]

I don't think its particularly unsafe.
The board is wide enough that the fingers are a respectable if not safe distance from the blade which on this cut probably still should have the guard. Being to the side allows as good control as anywhere else assuming this is a short board.

[Ed62]

I don't think its particularly unsafe.

I agree, but it feels more natural to be in front of the TS, at least for me.

Ed

[SARGE..g-47]

Are you guys referring to working to one side of the direct line (cut-line) of the blade or to left or right of the end of the extention tables? ...

[Ed62]

Good question. I don't have added extension tables on my saw. So I would say that standing to the infeed side of the saw seems more natural to me than standing where you're facing the body of the blade. Of course if you're reaching over the blade, then that's not very safe in my mind.

Ed

[cabinetman]

Are you guys referring to working to one side of the direct line (cut-line) of the blade or to left or right of the end of the extention tables? ...

This is the procedure:
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There must be something traditionally accepted as to where to stand, because that position would not feel appropriate to me. I would feel an inadequate level of control with the direction of the piece moving, and holding it against the fence while maintaining a controlled feed rate.

Other considerations for "What's wrong with this picture" to me is that you'd have your face over the cutting area. I guess it would feel like standing on the backside of the bit operating a table mounted router. In this picture it also appears that the blade guard is in the "up" position. Another technicality, is that the edge of the material against the fence doesn't look straight. It appears to be somewhat concaved toward the middle. The lead and trailing edges are tight to the fence and it looks as though there is a gap in the middle, FWIW. As I stated, the operator has to feel a level of comfort and safety with any procedure.
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[Ed62]

This is the procedure:
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There must be something traditionally accepted as to where to stand, because that position would not feel appropriate to me. I would feel an inadequate level of control with the direction of the piece moving, and holding it against the fence while maintaining a controlled feed rate.


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That's what I meant by feeling "natural". But I wonder if we were taught from the beginning to work from that side, would we still consider it un-natural or inappropriate? If we started that way, maybe it would feel right.

Ed

[Bill in Buena Park]

Cutting from side

Posted this in the original thread, but thought it might fit here too.

I find that with the CM 21829/BT3K, a cut from the side as shown is very comfortable and safe, since you can move the accessory table in close so there's no reaching over a huge table such as with a real cabinet saw. Being up close on the side offers excellent control advantages, especially cutting short panels, and not having to reach over the front of the table to push them past the pawls and riving knife. Note: I would not use this method ripping stock less than ~7in wide, due to blade-proximity-induced-anxiety. Also, I set my fence so the rear is toed away from the blade, and have left my pawls in place on the guard (but with the springs removed.)

C-man was right about that panel - didn't realize it had the slight central concavity till later, when running it against the router table fence during panel-raising.

[cabinetman]

Posted this in the original thread, but thought it might fit here too.

I find that with the CM 21829/BT3K, a cut from the side as shown is very comfortable and safe, since you can move the accessory table in close so there's no reaching over a huge table such as with a real cabinet saw. Being up close on the side offers excellent control advantages, especially cutting short panels, and not having to reach over the front of the table to push them past the pawls and riving knife. Note: I would not use this method ripping stock less than ~7in wide, due to blade-proximity-induced-anxiety. Also, I set my fence so the rear is toed away from the blade, and have left my pawls in place on the guard (but with the springs removed.)

C-man was right about that panel - didn't realize it had the slight central concavity till later, when running it against the router table fence during panel-raising.

Another point to ponder is being able to clear a fall off piece away from the fence. That body position would require you to reach over the blade. I'll also comment on my personal feeling on "toe out". To me that is starting off with an out of parallel cut. IMO, the cut can't help from being slightly "wedged cut".
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[Bill in Buena Park]

Another point to ponder is being able to clear a fall off piece away from the fence. That body position would require you to reach over the blade.
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Very good point - and no one should ever do this.

Never would I reach over a blade, or try to remove small cut-offs from my saw without shutting it off and waiting for the blade to stop. Having said that, if I anticipate cut-offs that can be safely removed from the saw with the blade in motion, I adjust my position accordingly.

I'll also comment on my personal feeling on "toe out". To me that is starting off with an out of parallel cut. IMO, the cut can't help from being slightly "wedged cut".
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Interesting consideration, C-man, but not one I've experienced problems with - I set toe-out just enough to make sure the back teeth don't contact the wood as it passes through. Everything checks out square and parallel when done... I think Loring once stated why this is, not sure I can do justice to try to repeat it.

[jackellis]

Couple of points:

I agree working from the side would be difficult with extension tables, though I did not feel uncomfortable working from the right side with the BT router accessory table installed. Working this way made it easier for me to keep the stock tight against the fence.

My personal preference is to always use the blade guard. Even when using a dado set, I am distinctly uncomfortable when the saw is running without a guard.

It seems to me the operator should turn off the saw and wait for the blade to stop before worrying about cutoffs unless they are cleared away using a push stick.

Even without the blade guard in place, I think there's a higher likelihood of being struck in the face with something if you're behind the saw than if you're on the side. My face was never over the blade, but perhaps that's because I'm not terribly tall.

[Pappy]

We all know, either from experience or video clips, how violent a kick back can be. From the side you are out of the path of the wood but will you be able to get your right hand off the piece in the split second it takes for the piece to be lifted, grabbed by the teeth, and thrown? I see a possibility of the right hand being jerked into the blade.

[docrowan]

I just made a similar cut yesterday and I cut it from the left side of the saw. I have no extension tables so my body was probably about 20 inches from the blade. It felt more natural to me than cutting from the front. I never make a through cut without the blade guard on and like another poster I'm skittish when I'm making a dado cut where I can't use the guard. I use push blocks if my hands have to be within a few inches of the blade guard.

I was also making a long 45 degree bevel rip on a 6 foot narrow piece of wood for a french cleat. Of course, I set the fence to the left side of the blade so the offcut would not be trapped between the blade and the fence to avoid a kick back situation, but that made placement of a featherboard very difficult. I've got a dual miter slot installed on the left side of the blade, but that didn't help me in this situation. What do you do to keep the stock tight to the fence in these situations?

[cabinetman]

This thread has been on my mind for a few days and I'm feeling a sense of unrest without a point being made. There are many things we can do in life that can be undertaken with absolutely no training.

A person can go out and buy any woodworking machinery desired. Go out and buy material and just start cutting it up. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which direction a piece of wood has to be fed into the blade to get cut.

One analogy I can think of is buying a motorcycle. In some states, and it used to be this way in Florida, that you needed no training or specialized license to walk into a dealer, pay the money, go outside, start the bike, and drive away. In fact, my first experience with motorcycles was exactly that. Any habits I developed in handling and safety, I learned on my own, whether they were right or wrong, were "comfortable" to me. When I started riding with other people and began to ride competitively, I found out that some of my habits were very unsafe, and challenged the dynamics of the motorcycle. They were habits that could endanger my life and lives of others.

The same held for when I started woodworking. Some procedures just felt "comfortable", and not experiencing any problems went on to think there isn't or never will be a problem. I had a mentor so to speak, named Werner, who had a shop in the same industrial area as mine, and within walking distance. He came from a woodworking generation, and continuously offered his suggestions about woodworking. Some of those I found difficult to accept and put to use, but later realized how right he was. Fortunately the problems weren't life threatening, just physically debilitating for whatever happened at the moment. Bad habits are very easy to develop, and very hard to break. Good habits are more easily learned from the start. Getting used to doing a procedure that is questionable will lead to a false sense of security.

The moment of error can be very devastating. From losing a finger or two, or your eyesight to having a very deep gash somewhere, happens in a split second. Accepted operating procedures have been developed from extensive input and statistics. I believe one of the benefits of forum discussion is to have the opportunity to have access to some of that input.

Saying things like "I've done it this way for years with no problems" really troubles me. I can only suggest to be open for learning and be prepared to break bad habits.
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[crokett]

Coming late to the party but I don'tt work from the side of my saw. I stand out of the way of the cut line, yes but I don't work from the side. It just feels wrong to do and it does sacrifice some control over the work. I can't see a circumstance where I would want to do that.