Gentle Reminder.

[Thom2]

But reading through this post (which I came in from the home page, if it is in BA) I have to ask where should a craigslist find be posted? It's not really a member classified because I'm not selling it, and it is open to anyone who has the means/oportunity. I recall people posting about deals at Menards and have never heard of the place, ie. it's a regional chain.

I'll throw in my $.02 as a mod, I feel that if the post is in the spirit of passing along a deal to the general membership, then I'll leave it go. If I see that it's a private individual trying to make a sale, then I'll move it to the classifieds.

To come up with or enforce a policy on passing along craigslist deals would also have to include "quick, my local HD only has 3 left in stock". There are a few very gray areas that are hard to pass judgement on. I've struggled with these scenarios for a few years now and have never been able to come up with a way to 'blanket policy' these types of posts.

[LarryG]

okay, but that means no more $100 Unisaws.

Again, I take your point, but suspect I wasn't clear with mine. What I was getting at was that there's only one $100 Unisaw, therefore only one person is going to get a bargain. That's not in the spirit of Bargain Alerts, which is supposed to be about deals that "everybody" can get.

Maybe the scope of Member Classifieds could be modified to allow these one-off listings there ...? In a way, that's the natural place for them, apart from the near-universal "Not mine" disclaimer that most posts that point to craigslist or eBay have.

No easy answers, I guess. I'm seeing a bunch of good points being made on both sides of this discussion!

[LarryG]

okay, but that means no more $100 Unisaws.

Again, I take your point, but suspect I wasn't clear with mine. What I was getting at was that there's only one $100 Unisaw, therefore only one person is going to get a bargain. That's not in the spirit of Bargain Alerts, which is supposed to be about deals that "everybody" can get.

Maybe the scope of Member Classifieds could be modified to allow these one-off listings there ...? In a way, that's the natural place for them, apart from the near-universal "Not mine" disclaimer that most posts that point to craigslist or eBay have.

[radhak]

I am a member for a year now, but a patron for less than a month (did not even know earlier that i could contribute financially).

My reason for contributing is purely a mark of appreciation for the site. But my personal take is that only those who have that level of appreciation for this site should pay. Not because they are forced, nor because they want to avoid hitting brick-walls while posting.

If anybody takes advantage of a BA before me, I am just the unluckier of the lot. It will not matter whether that other person is a patron or just a member or even just a lurker. While I might curse my luck (or lack thereof), I am not gonna blame somebody else who was quicker with the mouse or had a better timing. I am very confident that my fellow site-members will dig up more (and bigger) BAs for me to take advantage of tomorrow.

And also, there are patrons and then there are patrons : silver, gold, etc. So do we discriminate there too ....?

Ok, that last was pure mischief : the voices made me do it

[Russianwolf]

I guess I would have to ask whether craigslist items need to be posted at all. I'm not suggesting a ban on them, but they're basically just a variation on a classified ad you might see in your local newspaper. No one posts those.

I see your point about Menard's ... they don't have a store within hundreds of miles of me (to my knowledge), and I've often seen sales posted in BA that sounded interesting. I suppose the answer is that while they're technically not available to everyone, they do serve quite a large audience ... but I'm not part of it, alas.

okay, but that means no more $100 Unisaws.

[LarryG]

I have to ask where should a craigslist find be posted? It's not really a member classified because I'm not selling it, and it is open to anyone who has the means/oportunity. I recall people posting about deals at Menards and have never heard of the place, ie. it's a regional chain.

I guess I would have to ask whether craigslist items need to be posted at all. I'm not suggesting a ban on them, but they're basically just a variation on a classified ad you might see in your local newspaper. No one posts those.

I see your point about Menard's ... they don't have a store within hundreds of miles of me (to my knowledge), and I've often seen sales posted in BA that sounded interesting. I suppose the answer is that while they're technically not available to everyone, they do serve quite a large audience ... but I'm not part of it, alas.

[kramer katt]

closing bargains

Very interesting and appropriate discussion.
I think it comes down to what you really want to accomplish.
I am sure there are many, myself included, who have done well by the info in BA and this restricted access would certainly cut out those who may be picking low hanging fruit for resale or whatever without giving back. I don't think it will have enough bump in patron membership to offset the loss of the openness we enjoy now. There should be other ways to fund this great place but I think the loss of freedom of opinions would be sad. Even when the bargain I saw in BA was sold out after searching the stores it gave me more of an incentive to answer a question on "tools" or "home improvements" where I thought I might add new information to the thread.
If you want to keep those "lurker" from snapping all the deals on HDT or Amazon that are so short lived maybe a delay ( a couple hours?) in the public posting with an immediate advance private notice to patrons could be explored.
kk

added
Just read the forums on the other two or three ww sites to compare how civil and helpful everyone here behaves.

[thrytis]

To start with, i am a patron and will be renewing before my subscription expires in the next week.

It was the Bargain Alert forum that attracted me here in the first place. I found it by searching for something, then started checking occasionally. I lurked for a while and eventually started participating posting in both this forum and others on this site. I know people from other woodworking forums refer to this site because of the Bargain Alert forum. I think if you make it patron only, you'll lose a not insignificant way of attracting people to this site. People aren't going to become a patron just for the Bargain Alerts if they can't read it to see how good it is first.

One possibility of raising money through the Bargain Alerts (and other forums) is to automatically rewrite URLs to include the partner code. It probably wouldn't bring in as much money as someone paying to be a patron, but i'm sure it would bring in a little more.

Another possibility not to raise money but provide another patron only service is to create a patron only forum, open to any discussion. People could use this to post limited quantity deals, general site questions, or off topic messages that they don't want to share with the entire Internet. This would be kind of a compromise between the two extremes. I've seen another site that has a members only forum (non-fee but requires a certain level of posting and some other basic requirements to keep out lurkers) that occasionally gets some deals posted or classified ads for selling stuff real cheap to other members.

[ChrisD]

There are definitely good arguments from both sides.

If it takes only a couple of administrative clicks to restrict access to the BA forum, why don't we do a live test right now? Do it for a month or through a good bargain season. If it turns out to be the wrong thing to do (based on feedback directly to Sam, moderators, or via posts), then we can easily switch back to unrestricted state.

Of course there's that risk of losing the atmosphere of free communication that Sam is worried about, and getting it back may not be easy.

[TheRic]

So is this thread officially hijacked??

[Russianwolf]

I don't have an opinion on the BA patron only issue since I don't think I spend much time in there (especially since I've started boycotting Amazon, and have most everything I need in my shop).

But reading through this post (which I came in from the home page, if it is in BA) I have to ask where should a craigslist find be posted? It's not really a member classified because I'm not selling it, and it is open to anyone who has the means/oportunity. I recall people posting about deals at Menards and have never heard of the place, ie. it's a regional chain.

[Stormbringer]

OK, that was pretty funny.

Thanks

Jeffrey, you've probably brought more deals to more people here than any one other person -- and, if you like to think of it as a contest, that's fine by me.

Even better. If he thinks of it as a contest that makes it better for us! If he's got the time to scour the web for these deals, more power to him. We all win.

But, I seem to recall jumping on an amazing bargain posted by someone who made a grand total of 2 posts to BT3Central. That's one data point, but I think it's enough to show that some more investigation may be in order.

See Larry's post #17. Same thing here. I've often stumbled across something only to have seen it posted here two hours earlier.

Secondly, will non-members begin to post bargains to non-restricted forums, either on purpose or unknowingly? Will members feel we need to police such "bargain alerts"? That could become a headache real quick.

Unknowingly? I wouldn't even give that a second of consideration. I just can't see that happening. Especially that the "Bargain Alerts" thread will still appear on the front page where it clearly indicates bargains are to be posted there. I can't ever recall it happening yet. And if it did it was moved immediately.

On-purpose? I don't think someone would deliberatly post a bargain alert in the home-improvement forum to get back at us.

I certainly see the argument for restricting the BA's to members, but I think I'm leaning towards Sam's initial gut reaction. I think we build a better community by asking people to support something that they find useful, rather than restricting content until folks pay up.

Tom, I've been mulling this over for the last three weeks before posting my $.02 today. I was just suprised at how many vistors there are and how few contributed. Although it is, I wouldn't classify Baragin Alerts as content the way I would the other forums. Bargain Alerts are more hit or miss deals than valuble content to me. The "valuble stuff" would still be accessible by all. Jeez, I'm starting to sound like a mod. I apoligize. There are many, many out there who score huge deals (profits) without contributing anything, support for the site or knowledgable contributions for that matter. That was the point of my initial post.

Furthermore, I wouldn't expect anyone to pony up $$ for membership until they've been around for several months to see how the place suits them. I wouldn't want to miss out on any of their BA's during that time.

They would get to see the "value" of the site by visiting the other forums and having access to the priceless posts that make up this great site. If they want to "get in" on the bargains, contribute $10. Unlike some other sites, BT3 isn't popping up advertisements across your screen or sending you constant annoying e-mails. I think it's the least that can be done. Especially with the improvements that have taken place with the upgrade.

Thanks for listening,
Greg

[TheRic]

I've been a member for several years, only really been active for the past 6 months or so, and a patron only since end of Dec. I was a member of this site for about a year before I even got my saw. Bought my saw on a sale mentioned here.

I like the ideal to limit the Bargain Alerts to Patrons.

Here is a suggestion / comprise:
Allow non patrons to view the posts, but ONLY posts that are old (say a day or two, or a week). This will allow patrons to get a chance to score on that deal. It will also give all the info to everyone, some just a little later than others. It will entice people to be a patron so they can see up to date alerts. It will allow non-patrons to see what they are missing to give them a better ideal if it's worth $$$ to be a patron.

[LarryG]

Tom raises some good points that I'll confess to not having considered. Still, I wonder whether the bad aspects of a wide-open BA don't outweigh the good. As Ken mentioned, there are a lot of posts in here that aren't truly bargains if only because they're not available to everyone (i.e., craigslist with a local-pickup-only stipulation). A lot of those posts seem to come from relative newbies, as do the "Does anyone have an extra coupon?" posts and such. Most patrons, having been around long enough to know the ropes, better understand what BA is supposed to be about. It's not a free-for-all section for anything pertaining to shopping. It's Bargain Alerts.

I guess my bottom line is that while I'm all for the free exchange of information, it's one thing for people to be Good Guys and share their woodworking knowledge, but it's another to literally put money into someone else's pocket -- which is exactly what seems to be happening, all too often. How many times has there been some hot deal that dried up in a matter of minutes ... deals that our own established and, by our own community's standards, deserving members were unable to get, just because their timing was a little off?

[maxparot]

Think of the other side of the coin, People refusing to post what they have found because it is patrons only.
Plus it has always been my thinking that some peoples most valuable contribution to BT3Central is their knowledge not their money. Maybe we should have a non-monitary patronage level that is available to contributors based on other patrons recomendations.