Gentle Reminder.

[Sam Conder]

Everyone,

You all have once again amazed me. Somewhere in one of the posts on page 5 or 6, it was mentioned that "this is the most heated debate" they had ever seen at BT3Central. If that is the case then my original vision for an online woodworking community has been realized! Except for a couple of post that seem to only exist to "stir things up", this has been a civil exchange of opinions and ideas. BRAVO!

Somewhere along my upbringing, I was taught to "always go with your gut". I guess that is because I was raised with a firm understanding of what is right and what is wrong. I spent the night with my mama last night and we discussed my youth. I asked her if I was "easy" to raise or if I was "hard' to raise. She said I was the easiest of her three because I never intentionally broke the rules. I told her that I never broke the rules because she and my dad did a good job of laying out the rules and explaining why they were important. I understood their concern and therefore chose to abide by the rules. This is not a pat on my back, but rather a pat on thier back for being good parents.

When I first created what is now BT3Central.com, I was not a parent. BT3Central.com was "my baby". I applied the same methods and ideals to "raising" the forum as my parents did when raising me. I laid out my vision, rules and intentions at the very begining and was dilligent to enforce the rules and steer the forum in what I thought was the right direction. I was also very fortunate to attract some great individuals who helped me in my "parenting" of the site. I now feel that the site is maturing and therefore takes very little "parenting". BRAVO!

In conclusion, I must say that I firmly believe that my "gut feeling" is the way to go. We are a community. That community includes Patrons, members and lurkers alike. There is no "us" and "them" around here, and if you feel that way then you obviously have not paid close attention to the spirit of this community. The original post and the initial reply are prime examples of the tremendous leadership that exists here outside of my "reign" as Admin. Both the MOD who delivered the "gentle reminder" and the forum member who challenged everyone to think about the value of this community displayed great leadership. The dialog that resulted from it brought to the surface the true personality of what we have all built here, and I couldn't be more proud of what we have built.

I did not go home last night as Thursday night is my night to spend with my homeless buddies at church. I have not been able to calculate the Fund Drive total but this discussion no doubt resulted in a surge in funding. We probably arn't quite at our goal yet but I have no doubt that we'll make it.

Finally, in a rare "supreme decision" move on my part, I have decided that the Bargan alerts forum will remain open to everyone. That is the spirit of BT3Central.com. Please accept my most heartfelt "thank you" to everyone who has contributed to this discussion and kept it on par for the civility and mutual respect that makes BT3Central what it is.

[Ken Massingale]

After reading the input to this point, it seems, although not intended, that even considering restricting any section of BT3 has created a feeling of 'us' vs 'them'.
I am now firmly convinced that the forum should stay as it is, open to everyone in every respect.

[JimK]

This is the first time I've created a message where I was extremely self conscious about my post count showing. It's also the first time that I was concerned that someone may look up whether or not I'm a patron. It's the first time I wondered where I stood and where I fit in. The point is, it's the first time I felt that I would be judged while part of this community.

I'm one of those who have benefited tremendously from BA, and all the other forums here. I also just happen to not have many posts. Not by design, or by lack of caring, or lack of appreciation, just because it happens to be that way, for any number of reasons. It makes me that much more thankful for all the contributors out there who are able to dedicate their time and knowledge.

I care about this site more than even I knew. I was on edge last night, and woke up lying in bed this morning thinking about this exchange. Mostly because I've heard some opinions that I didn't know lurked under the surface out there. But also because I feared that something that has worked so well, with a spirit that you can't find elsewhere, seemed to be open for change.

I have benefited so much from this site that I feel compelled to contribute to the fund out of an immense sense of gratitude. That's been on my list for the last month. In the traditional spirit of this site, it's the right thing for me to do. I won't judge those that can't or don't, and I'm thankful to the others that have given more than I can. I wasn't aware of any sense of urgency since it says 2007 fund drive. Since last night I've been scrambling to get my PayPal account revived because I started feeling that I should get that taken care of before I post. So that maybe I would be more "legitimate". I never felt that way here before.

I want to believe, and I know, that this one thread will eventually end, things are going to go back to normal, everyone will be reminded how thankful they are for how things have always been, and a few more of those that can contribute will, for all the right reasons. I can't say enough how much I appreciate what I get out of this site, and I want to say thanks to Sam and all you guys for all your help, and the unique personality of this site.

Jim K.

[Ken Weaver]

This has been a great thread - as a long term patron (this year's check in the mail Sam), and after all the posts - I'm convinced that we need to stick to our basic operating philosophy. If you like having the site, contribute to keep it running; and you get your name on the patron's list as your perk. No other restrictions, no other costs - its called "community." We're glad to have you.

I have never been involved with a better bunch of people who are self-policing, infinitely caring, and willing to help without making anyone feeling unwanted, Just ask the members who found a check in the mail because it was mentioned in the community that they were having difficulties. Unsolicited, just because the "community" cared. We clean up pretty good and if things get posted in the wrong place, or if a lurker shows up with untoward motivations, it doesn't take the community long to spot it and its taken care of, quietly and effectively. If this is the kind of community you want to be associated with, welcome, and together we'll figure out how to keep things running. If not, thanks for stopping by - but you wouldn't like it here anyway.

Let's stay an "open" forum in all respects and show the world how its done.

Just my $.02.

[Popeye]

Boy Howdy, ain't this been sum dicussun. Support the site with $ if you can afford it. If you can't then I'm glad to cover you. If you're overly sensitive then take a "chill pill". Sheesh.... Pat

[leehljp]

I have been looking at the contributions banner at the top of the page for the last few weeks and am surprised at how slowly it has increased.

It is hard for me to understand how not every one who lurks here could feel that they have saved enough from the BA area or gained enough free knowledge/help to contribute the 10 bucks it takes gain a subscription.
Heck I spend more than that on coffee in a given week…..

Bold emphasis above are mine. Hank

I have noticed since contributions began, that it takes about 6 to 8 weeks to reach the target goal. I too think it is a little slow, but that has been my observation.

I consider this my "magazine" subscription to Woodworking, House Repair, Auto, Men's Countrypolitan, and the Sunday Funnies all in one!

[leehljp]

In case you hadn't noticed, the main reason for this forum thriving - the BT3 saw - is gone.

NO! It's not gone. I have 2 1/2 on 2 continents and some backup parts beyond that!

The BT3x is going to be like the Studebaker, only it is not going to have to get "old" for it to be appreciated!

[sbs]

The confrontational and exclusionary tones in many posts in this thread are unusual for this forum, and if they are an indication of how you think things should be, then one of the main reasons that this forum thrives (friendly and mature discourse) will be gone.

If you lock up the BA section, then another reason that this forum thrives will be gone.

In case you hadn't noticed, the main reason for this forum thriving - the BT3 saw - is gone.


If you want this forum to become a private clubhouse for a few old members and where very few new people join, then the proposal is a good one.

[LowerUnit]

Hi - My name is Scott and I'm a (BT3, Woodworking, BA, etc...-you pick it)-A-Holic.

Group: Hi Scott

My story is not so different from many others. I wanted to try woodworking for a long time. I bought a BT15 early Dec 2006. When I returned home, all proud to finally be starting into woodworking, I researched my new purchase. I'm glad I did. I started at the Ryobi site which indicated the better saw choice was the BT3K. I took the BT15 back and searched for BT3k and found one at a pawn shop in like new shape but missing rails, guard, and miter fence for $40.00 which I bought. Again back to the Ryobi site to look for parts and was told to check out the BT3 site.

WOW - BT3 has become an "ism" for me. Most of my free time ever since is spent frolicking this site. I found talented skilled individuals doing what I have dreamed of doing, but had no idea how. Information is freely exchanged. People share and care. There is also sensitivity and humor. And there was and additional bonus, the BA.

I should have never spent any (at least not as much) of the money that I have on tools in the last 2 months. I scored on the Herc-U-lift (at $14.72 it was affordable) but otherwise have not benefitted from the BA with material goods and saved dollars (yet). I have benefitted from the BA with a better understanding of what is a good deal or not. I also do believe there is a value to craigslist posts or whatever regional chain posts due to the fact that it may be I was spending time here and not there so I would've missed seeing those items/opportunities.

I must say I haven't yet contributed (this will change in a near future point), but this is not due to needing more time to see if this site is worth it. It is due to the fact that I have been challenging myself to establish the tools of this craft that others more experienced than myself here talk about and use. I'm sure I could have denied myself an opportunity to buy a tool and contributed the $10.00 and on that point I'm guilty. I probably should have taken care of some other responsibilities before the tool purchases for that matter too. Being new, I got wrapped up in chasing a dream and getting tools (no Powermatics, Grizzly, P-C, Kreg stuff here) without regard for some of my own personal obligations not to mention any knowledge about any site contributions. By the way, I now have most everything I think necessary except some decent wood and have made a couple things seeing how these tools work. I made a knife block inspired by a post in the "Completed Projects" out of two fence pickets for less than $5.00 in wood. The gained experience was priceless. The cheap clamps I bought broke too. So now I was lusting to do the next project, but had to buy better/more wood and clamps. It's a slippery slope getting the $10.00 to BT3 when you're new and excited about a making something great like others do on the BT3 site without a big budget.

Just know this though, the scope of people here, the information shared, and the BA make this site an ATTRACTION. Because of this ATTRACTION I am compelled to contribute in a social posting way to the best of my ability and will be grateful to contribute financially in a very near future point.

At first I thought a patron BA was a good idea. After reading posts and some thought, I no longer feel this way. I believe ATTRACTION not PROMOTION is why I'm here. I know in my heart that because of what is given here, my reciprocity will be forthcoming.

[jwaterdawg]

i like cheese

[Otter]

I got lucky and found this small group of people that had a saw like mine way in 03. I received a lot of guidance and information from the articles and asking questions. Every bit of what I received was freely given. When the call came in 04 to support, I gave freely, like many did to insure that this community continued and still do today. I could not take the loss of such a great place to find good people that had similar interests.

I don’t feel that any posting area should be restricted. I thought that the idea was a good one when I first read the suggestion, but after reflecting on why I still visit and contribute to this site, I don’t see restricting as being in the spirit of this community.

That is just my opinion, I could be wrong…..just ask my wife.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

I have been lurking around here for a few months now.
I am part of the dark side group, as I own a Grizzly TS. As you can tell by my post I have not contributed much however I have gained a wealth of knowledge from reading the existing ones.
I have been looking at the contributions banner at the top of the page for the last few weeks and am surprised at how slowly it has increased.
As of today I have joined the “us” group not in an effort to ensure I get the bargain alerts but to ensure the site remains up and running so that when I need to ask a question it will be here with an answer.
I am very new to the hobby and have gained a wealth of information from this site in a very short time.
It is hard for me to understand how not every one who lurks here could feel that they have saved enough from the BA area or gained enough free knowledge/help to contribute the 10 bucks it takes gain a subscription.
Heck I spend more than that on coffee in a given week…..

BTW, welcome aboard! Great group of guys that you can get the answers to about darn near anything (except women)! Thanks for joining. Ask questions. Post results. Be active!

[footprintsinconc]

just wanted to add, while i was reading and making an attempt to post a response, my wife has fallen asleep here next to me complaining that i spend too much time on this site since i got into it a couple of months ago. just wanted to share this to strengthen jefferyschronce point, that we are a community and need to contribute which ever way we can ----> that is the spirit!

[footprintsinconc]

oh my

Well it took forever reading thru all 6.2 pages of this discussion. I get the feeling that the anger/temperature rising in some of the posts and 'lurkers' vs us is getting out of hand.

I couldnt agree more with the post that JefferySchronce, radhack, stytooner and lastly JScook have made. look, the thing that brings people to this site is its uniqueness, friendly and inspiring advice, humor and ....... This is what attracted me to this site. I think, I can safely say, that 'BARGAIN ALERT' is not what initially brought 95% or more to this site. I dont like surfing the net, but since the last few months, this is the site that i visit the most. I just started looking at the BARGAIN ALERT page and have yet to benefit. I have posted a couple of questions/comment though in that section. I got a deal for the first time in my purchasing history from RIDGID's website.

Two or three weeks agao, I stumbled across the post for the fund drive. I didnt even know that you could help out until i read the post. I didnt even see the bar across the top initially. Whats worse, i still havent done my part yet because I've literally been lazy and it keeps skipping my mind ----> THIS is serving as a reminder to myself.

Those of us who have done their part need to realize and understand that not all the fingers on a hand are not of equal length. all of them have a purpose and that just because we did our part, doesnt mean that we can look down on the others. I do not mean any disrespect but by reading some of the post, you cant help but get the feeling that there is anger over missing out on deals. remember, the site's BA cannot be reason behind the empty shelves at the BORGS and other retail centers.

The goal is to HELP keep this site up and running. dont cut anyone off of any part of this site. make everyone feel a part of this forum and hopefully they will contribute when ever possible. We want people to contribute NOT because they are missing something, but instead because they BENEFITED from this site. We need to make this forum stand out from other forums.

we definately need to quit the bold/capital letters and keep the temperature down. Just take a deep breath and exhale

I cant put it any better than stytooner has:
"in keeping with the spirit of which it was originally setup, it is to SHARE deals and info, not to hold such info hostage. I do understand that some may feel that because they missed out on a deal, it's because this info was available to all. Perhaps so, but that is why the whole forum exists. To freely share the info, whatever that may entail. This is the true spirit of this entire forum. This should not change. Any new Patrons or Members only perks should not include info of any type. To do so would encroach on our most valuable resource, which is sharing information that may ultimately benefit another, regardless of whether they are a Patron or not. Anyone that posts any useful information is a Patron IMHO. No one wears a crown around here. You can't count Adele's tiara.

I'm just calling it like I see it and everyone has an opinion, but I feel changing the status quo on this issue would be an error."

my very long 2 cents

Best of all to everyone (that includes getting good deals !

[Jeffrey Schronce]

As a previous "lurker" and now a lowly silver patron this is getting a little scary of the "us" versus "them" debate. One of the main draws of this site that made it unique to me was the freely shared information including, but not limited to, the bargain alerts. In the last year I have installed a 480 amp 42 breaker box for my business, a double decker deck that is considered "expert" level, and other high end home improvements but when it comes to true "woodworking" I'm a relative rookie. This site and it’s many members has been invaluable in my learning curve of a hobby I want to do well, safely, and have some good old fun in the process and be proud of what I built.

After being on the executive staff of two dot coms and knowing a “little bit” about web sites the information posted and dialogue was a breath of fresh air compared to other web forums out there. Due to the voluntary basis of the free flow of information I wrote a letter to Sam that I posted to host the complete site if needed for free, help with branding / marketing etc. I also made a voluntary $$$ contribution but it feels like my small number of posts, freely offering my time / talent / server, and $25 contribution doesn't make me one of "us" or even close.

I also love seeing Jeffery's and other people’s bargains even if I don't receive the goods and I've lost bids on e-bay in the last 20 seconds too ... oh well!!! If the forum transitions over to a paid site or ranks people in some way in my humble opinion you lose the flavor, spirit, and most likely the original intent of the founders of why it is some much fun to see what was new, share what people know and don't know in woodworking, as well as freely discuss a whole lot of other different topics.

The net net of all this is that I fear what I personally consider a cool website is quickly transitioning into one that is very uncool and if that is what the "better" members are wanting I’m out of here as one of "us" because I paid and will quickly turn back into a lowly lurker!!!!

I wouldn't get real worried about the site. This is the nicest, kindest site out there as you noted. This is the first real heated debate I have ever really witnessed. We even speak kindly to each other about dust collection, though we aren't high falutin' enough to discuss Festool or SawStop. Maybe that is what keeps it civil! LOL!

I don't know if it was in your post or in another post in this thread but I LOVE the idea of having to be a member (not necessarily paid or anything) to get access to BA. This is not to build an inactive member base, but hopefully get people signed up and using the email updates to keep interest up.

As far as contribution levels, I don't think anyone looks down on a $25 member, $10 member or whatever. Anyone that does is poo-poo IMHO. I don't think anyone should look down at non-paying members either! If someone is here contributing "intellectual property" then great! I am not a huge fan of a lurker who won't even sign up to be a member, but I even respect that right. My prior statement about closing BA was a knee jerk reaction to the fact that we are being so slow in raising $3500 with the active members we have. Last year we didn't seem to have a problem.

Now for my diatribe that boarders on a screaming "look at me I want to be named poster of the year and win an Oscar" moment. Last year I beat around BT3 a little. I felt good about what I was seeing compared to the flame fest at Woodnet. While the folks at SMC are very nice, I felt they were more advanced in WWing. I felt at home at BT3, even though I wasn't really sure what a BT3 was as I had never saw one (thanks Thom2!). I caught a couple good sales, felt good about the site and gave whatever it was . . . . . $10 . . . . $20, I don't remember. Whatever it was I remember thinking it was about the same as a magazine subscription so why not? During 2006 I became a much more active member. My woodworking skills took off! So did my tool collection! LOL! I am versed in M&T joinery, am excellent in finishing matters, plane, joint, rip and otherwise mill my own rough stock into beautiful finished products for my loved ones. Occasionally I get money for doing this thing I love! This is where it really gets good . . . . The REAL thing I have gotten from BT3 in the last year is a sense of community. A sense of belonging. Never has anyone belittled my questions, opinions or projects. Everyone has been so supportive in anything I have discussed. Folks, this is not an easy thing for me. I am about the most anti-social person you have ever saw in your life. I really don't like many people (sad huh?) but BT3 really feels like home to me. Heck I even participated in a chat online with BT3 folks and even meet a few of them in real life. Who knows, next year I may have some friends! Now, wipe that tear from your eye and understand that all anyone here wants is a strong community of folks that are dedicated to good old woodworking and those activites surrounding same! If you can contribute a few bucks then do it! If you can't then contribute some knowledge! Mentor a local budding woodworker. Have a local BT3er mentor you! Just do something for the good of this fine woodworking community.

And if that good thing is a bargin alert, make sure you PM me first! HARAARRHHAAAAAAAA!!!!! :0